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diate Education; but what are we doing | to have been introduced in a Committee with University Education? It is quite of the Whole House before the Bill true we have thrown open Trinity College to Roman Catholics, but on terms which, in obedience to those whom they respect, they cannot accept. Are we, then, to say that all the University endowments of Ireland are to be absorbed by the Protestants, and that the Catholic masses of the people are to be left without the means of University Education because they will not accept the system you think best? Is such a course safe, or wise, or worthy of a great nation? That is the question which I hold ought to be decided on the second reading. If we go on as we are going, nothing but mischief can come of it. I think that all the details of the Bill, with which this matter is encumbered, are of secondary consideration. Any mistake in detail can be corrected; but if you insist on setting your faces against what is fair, and reasonable, and just, you will educate a race of people who will hate you instead of loving you. It is in vain to talk of discontent and disaffection, unless we exhaust every means in our power in order to give Ireland what she never yet has had a fair and reasonable share in the money spent on University Education in Ireland. I thank the House for having listened to me so kindly. Perhaps I have hardly kept to my intention, which was to speak with great calmness and reserve; but I feel very warmly on this subject, and I can imagine nothing in the world is so calculated to unite together all classes of Her Majesty's subjects as that the House of Commons should-and I have great confidence, after the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that they will take the subject into very serious consideration, not allowing themselves to be turned aside by small difficulties of detail, but determined that, come what may, nothing shall be wanting on their part to do equal justice to all Her Majesty's subjects.

MR. NEWDEGATE inferred, from the speech just delivered by the right hon. Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe), that the Senate of that University was not quite an happy family. He (Mr. Newdegate) was one of those who looked at the substance rather than the form of the present Bill; and he thought, after having consulted Mr. Speaker, that the substance of it ought

Mr. Lowe

was introduced, for the Bill proposed
the endowment of a particular form of
religion for educational purposes, as had
just been declared by the right hon.
Gentleman the Member for the University
of London, and the House could not have
a more competent witness. The framers of
the Bill had managed to elude the Rule of
the House, for it had been so drawn that
the word "religion
did not appear in
it, and the consequence was, that al-
though it was a Bill for the endowment
of a particular religion, the terms of the
Bill had enabled its proposers to evade
the Forms of the House. The House had
thus a Bill pressed on for second reading,
the substance of which ought to have
been submitted to a Committee of the
Whole House before the Bill was intro-
duced. The Bill, as was now declared,
ought to have been founded upon Resolu
tions passed in Committee of the Whole
House. By the process which had been
adopted the Bill had been thrust on the
attention of the House with undue haste,
and now the hon. Member for Roscom
mon (the O'Conor Don) urged that the
House should at once adopt its principle.
What was the principle of the Bill? It
was exclusive to the last degree. The
first principle of the Bill was that no
student of any of the schools or
Colleges connected with the Queen's
University, the University in Dublin,
should be admissible for examination
for a degree before the Senate of the
University, which the House was asked
to create. The House knew not how that
Senate was to be composed; but the hon.
and learned Member for Denbigh (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) said that he should
support the second reading of the Bill,
but would insist upon Parliamentary con-
trol over the intended University. Well,
there was a case in point. This debate
reminded him (Mr. Newdegate) of the
debates prior to the adoption of the
first grant for the College of Maynooth,
which he had read. At the close of the
last century, an attempt was made to ac-
complish an object closely analogous to
that which was now proposed. The
Maynooth College had been founded on
the same principle as they were now
asked to re-adopt, but with the security
that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was
to be a leading member of its nominated
Senate, and with the further security

that the provision for Maynooth was to | Cullen in Ireland, as a Bishop, in 1851be derived from annual grants, to be he (Mr. Newdegate) well remembered it year by year proposed and voted in the the Christian Brothers, an Order afHouse of Commons. The hon. and filiated, as he (Mr. Newdegate) believed, learned Member for Denbigh could not to the Jesuit Order, appeared in Ireland. be ignorant of the history of the Col- After Cardinal Cullen had attended the lege of Maynooth, or of the final aban- last meeting of the Papal Council of donment of all attempts on the part of 1870, he went to the Irish College in Parliament to control it. How, then, Rome, and there made a speech which could they hope that Parliament could was reported in the English Roman Cacontrol such an institution as that now tholic newspapers, and of which the sought to be created? He (Mr. Newde- Cardinal never to the day of his death gate) adduced the case of Maynooth as denied the authenticity. He told the an illustration of the failure of Parlia- Irish College that the object of the mentary control. The Lord Chancellor Papal Council of 1870 was to suppress of Ireland (Lord Chancellor Redesdale), Gallicanism in the Roman Catholic after the institution of Maynooth Col- Church, and to establish the domilege had been in existence for some nation of Ultramontanism. Ultramonyears, petitioned His Majesty, that he tanism was the extreme of Popery. might be relieved from his functions It was the principle, which sought to with respect to the College of Maynooth, uphold the universal and temporal, as because he found himself in a position well as the ecclesiastical, power of the of disgraceful nonentity. What hope, Pope. Ultramontanism involved this then, was there of the efficiency of Par- principle taat whatever a Roman liamentary control over a University, Catholic might seek in the form of educonstituted as was proposed by the Bill? cation, in the sphere of literature, or in Not only did the Bill involve the prin- the form of any intellectual pursuit-he ciple of denominational endowment, but, might have on one condition-that it as he had said before, the principle of should be granted to him by his Church, exclusion-exclusion of the pupils of but that he should not pursue it, if forevery school connected with either of bidden by his Church. That principle the other Universities in Ireland. How the Christian Brothers had been inculcould they have a clearer illustration of eating and carrying out in Ireland to the obvious character of this proposed such an extent, and in so bigoted a institution? This University was founded spirit, that the Roman Catholic Bishops on the principle of exclusive deno- appealed to the present Pope against minationalism, and yet the Representa- the exclusive action of the Order and tive of the University of London, which their rejection of the Bishops' authority. was founded upon the opposite principle The present Pope was reported to have of non-denominational inclusion, seemed refused the petition of the Roman Cathoto imagine that the House would create lic Bishops of Ireland, though it was a pesatisfaction by this abandonment of tition, adopted by them, when assembled the principle he was bound to re- in Synod at Maynooth. This monastic present in favour of principles Par- Order was, in consequence, independent liament had not for 300 years sanc- of the Roman Catholic Episcopate in tioned. Parliament had abandoned Ireland, through the decision of the prethe principle of denominational exclu- sent Pope, whose predecessor, Pius IX., siveness, even where much more mode- upheld the independence of the Jesuit rately exemplified in the case of the older and Franciscan houses in Paris, against English Universities, and yet Parliament the Archbishop of Paris. As far as ho was now deliberately asked to adopt the (Mr. Newdegate) could understand, principle of exclusive denominationalism the schools and Colleges, which would in Ireland. Be it observed that the Ro- directly benefit by the grant Parman Catholic Bishops were silent. At liament was asked to make for this the end of April there appeared in The University would be the schools and Times newspaper an announcement that Colleges of the monastic Orders, and there had been a serious difference over the conduct of these Orders and among the authorities of the Roman their schools the House had not even Catholic Church in Ireland. Simulta- the security of the control of the Roman neously with the appearance of Cardinal Catholic Bishops in Ireland, whatever

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For the House va met My GMAANA VYA tak primeique in vid Miyata i torvish, i wyg & theveny bophea, ang A Toast the What wereld wa. MICHTERZ westa Mwantum Via Mazurra, & seminary 4. Chromite Castaner, che porn in der that we may joung, una uh upgra to a determination on the question Min principem eft te ko... It had been wired the principle of the Bill. www.wn with great dexterity by the whole course of to-day's discussion pr bom. Member for Bowcommon; but he that the subject is one which the H Mr. Howdogabe, prayed the House, considers to be of the highest imp and thors who thought it newwwsary to ance, and, indeed, which is so imp establish another University in Ireland ant as to be taken out of the categ * University to which no Roman of ordinary Private Bills. One po Catholic could take any reasonable ex- has been mentioned by the Chancel ception, if that were posible-not to of the Exchequer, to which I sho wlopt the Bill, because it embodied the wish for a moment to advert. The rig desire of a small section of that House hon. Gentleman has said that in to endow that Ultramontanism-that opening statement I made an importa grogions Popery, the representatives of announcement, which he regarded as which now governed the Papacy by a a certain extent, an alteration of wha persistent system of rebellion. These stated in introducing the measure, a strome doctrines had become dominant that is, the source from which we p in the Vatican, and wore found to have posed to get the money to carry out t If I made a rendered the Vatican a focus of rebellion provisions of the Bill. ngainst ovory Government in Europe. observation to lead the right hon. Ge No, no!" Ho reforred those who tleman to the conclusion at which donied that to the Chambers and Go- appears to have arrived, I can o vernment of Italy, to the Chambers and say that I did so by mistake. We p Government of France, to the Chambers pose that the fund which we have me and Government of Germany. Her tioned in our Bill is the fund whi Majonty's Government had, through the should be used. We believe it is t Chancellor of the Exchequer, expressed right fund to have recourse to. their opinion that this House could not what I intended to convey in my ope safely sanction the second reading of ing remarks was, that if the majority

Mr. Newdegate

B

the House thought otherwise, and con- | at all events, that they will entertain sidered it better some other fund should the proposal for another day. be taken, we should consider any proposal in that direction rather than abandon our Bill-because that is not a cardinal point. We still contend that the fund we have named is the one to take; but, of course, we will bow to the opinion of the House in the matter. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accede to the request I have made.

SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONE, as representing a constituency, seven-eighths of his supporters being Nonconformists, would give his hearty assent to the principle of the Bill, because it would not subsidize denominational education, and it was the duty of Parliament to pass a measure that would be thoroughly satisfactory to the people of Ireland.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I am sorry to say, in reply to the appeal which has been made to the Government, that we are unable to respond to that appeal, at all events, at the present time. I quite acknowledge the importance of the measure and of the subject; but I must remind the House of the great difficulties which the Members of the Government themselves experience in proceeding with their own Business. It is, therefore, not in my power to name a day for the resumption of the debate.

MAJOR NOLAN: I think that the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be regretted. The Leader of the Opposition has applied to the right hon. Gentleman to afford a day on which this discussion might be resumed; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer, acting contrary to the ordinary usages of the House, does not see his way to do so. I maintain that it is a most unusual

quest.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: It is hardly necessary that I should say a word in support of the appeal which has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon, that the Government should give him some facili-thing, when the Leader of the Opposities for the further consideration of this tion asks for a day, for the Leader of Bill. I do not wish to press the speech the House to refuse that day. Other of the Chancellor of the Exchequer any Irish Business was given up upon this further than it is reasonable to do. I Wednesday, in order that the Bill of did not understand the right hon. Gen- my hon. Friend might be taken; and a tleman to commit either himself or the wish having been expressed for another Government to the support of even the day from the front Opposition Bench, I principle of the Bill; but I did gather think the Chancellor of the Exchequer from his speech that the right hon. Gen- has taken a somewhat extraordinary tleman had applied his mind to the sub-course in declining to accede to this reject, and that on their being satisfied on certain points which he indicated, it was possible that the Bill might meet with the support of the Government. In these circumstances, and looking to the large amount of support which has been given to the Bill on both sides of the House, I cannot doubt the Government will be anxious that such an opportunity as seems now to present itself of settling this long-standing and difficult question should be taken advantage of, and I hope that they will give an opportunity for the further prosecution of the debate. If the Government intend, on further consideration, to oppose the Bill altogether, the measure can probably be disposed of at another Sitting. But, on the other hand, if the Government, on examination, clearly approve of the principle of the Bill, it will then be a matter for consideration how much time they may be able to give to it. I hope,

MR. PARNELL: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has always shown himself to be very desirous of doing everything in his power to meet the convenience of the Irish Members-at least, that has been my experience, and, I believe, it has been the experience of other hon. Gentlemen. What is the position of the Irish Members? Most of them, including myself, have come over here at the greatest possible inconvenience, in order to be present at the second reading of this Bill, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer refuses to name a day, at some time or other, when the consideration of the subject may be resumed, we shall be placed in the position of being obliged to hang about the House waiting for the Bill to come on. On the other hand, if a day were appointed as requested, we could return with clear consciences to our pur

that might be worth. He asked the the Bill without further inquiry-a Bill | House, after their experience of May- so drawn as to have invaded the Forms nooth College, their connection with of the House, which, on any matter which, and pretended control over touching religion, required that the which, Parliament had been forced to subject should be debated in Committee abandon-whether, if Roman Catholic of the Whole House before any Bill Bishops could not control these schools thereon was introduced. He asked the and Colleges, which were to be con- House to reject the second reading of nected with this new University, there the Bill, as founded on a system of exwas any hope of Parliament doing clusive denominationalism, totally inconso? He trusted that the House would sistent with the principles, on which Parforgive the length of his remarks; liament had for more than 30 years that his experience of the Maynooth proceeded, and no less at variance with question in that House, the attention he the principles, on which the Parliaments had for years given to the condition and of an earlier period had invariably effects of the College of Maynooth, would acted. induce the House to excuse his occu

pying their time. What was discovered by the Commission appointed to inquire into the education of Maynooth? They discovered and reported, that the education given at Maynooth was not only limited and imperfect, but that it tended to the most ultra doctrines of Ultramontanism. Now, the House was asked to proceed upon the principle on which Maynooth was founded, in erecting a University for the laity of Ireland, after Parliament had deliberately severed its connection from Maynooth, a seminary which inculcated doctrines of which Parliament could not approve. That was the principle of the Bill. It had been introduced with great dexterity by the hon. Member for Roscommon; but he (Mr. Newdegate) prayed the House, and those who thought it necessary to establish another University in Ireland a University to which no Roman Catholic could take any reasonable exception, if that were possible-not to adopt the Bill, because it embodied the desire of a small section of that House to endow that Ultramontanism-that egregious Popery, the representatives of which now governed the Papacy by a persistent system of rebellion. These extreme doctrines had become dominant in the Vatican, and were found to have rendered the Vatican a focus of rebellion against every Government in Europe. [No, no!"] He referred those who denied that to the Chambers and Government of Italy, to the Chambers and Government of France, to the Chambers and Government of Germany. Her Majesty's Government had, through the Chancellor of the Exchequer, expressed their opinion that this House could not safely sanction the second reading of

Mr. Newdegate

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." -(Mr. Synan.)

THE O'CONOR DON: I do not think it would be desirable, after what has fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe), that I should resist the Motion for the adjournment of the debate; but I would appeal to Her Majesty's Government as to whether they should not give me an early day for its resumption, in order that we may come to a determination on the question involved in the principle of the Bill. The whole course of to-day's discussion proves that the subject is one which the House considers to be of the highest importance, and, indeed, which is so important as to be taken out of the category of ordinary Private Bills. One point has been mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to which I should wish for a moment to advert. The right hon. Gentleman has said that in my opening statement I made an important announcement, which he regarded as, to a certain extent, an alteration of what I stated in introducing the measure, and that is, the source from which we proposed to get the money to carry out the provisions of the Bill. If I made any observation to lead the right hon. Gentleman to the conclusion at which he appears to have arrived, I can only say that I did so by mistake. We propose that the fund which we have mentioned in our Bill is the fund which should be used. We believe it is the right fund to have recourse to. But what I intended to convey in my opening remarks was, that if the majority of

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