that in any legislation upon the question | of opinion, whether religious or political. the School of Theology should be clearly He was aware that some wits connected separated from the University and at- with the College at Cambridge which tached to the College, and to the College bore the same name thought fit in times only. He recurred, then, to his original past to sneer at their "silent sister;" proposition, that there was equality as re- but he believed that wit was never more garded University Education between Pro- misapplied, as that so-called "silent testant and Catholic, but not as regarded sister," in every department of science, Collegiate education. Now, perhaps he art, and literature, had ever held, and should be told that there was an easy still held, a proud and conspicuous posiand simple way of settling all these diffi- tion. What, then, he proposed was culties by prohibiting the religious ser- that one or more of the existing Roman vices, and putting an abrupt end to the Catholic Colleges in Ireland should be religious lectures and teaching which he incorporated either in the University of had mentioned. His reply to any such Dublin or in the Queen's University. proposition was that it was impossible. The latter course would, he thought, As an old member of the Birmingham raise fewer difficulties. As to what ColLeague, he was in no manner ashamed lege should be selected, the old charter of saying that nobody in that House had of the University of London, with its list contended more firmly than he had for of affiliated Colleges, would afford a the absolute separation of secular and guide. He believed it would be found religious teaching; but there was a time upon inquiry that Carlow College would and a place for everything, and, as a be able to prove a better claim than any practical man, he knew that these ques- of its possible competitors. Its head, tions were fought, and settled for a con- Dr. Kavanagh, was a man of undoubted siderable period, between 1870 and 1873, ability and learning, and he believed although, no doubt, some day they would that former Examiners of the London be re-opened, there being no such thing University would be found ready to state as finality. But, because at some future that students from that College had altime, and at some remote date, they ways come up well and carefully prehoped to push their own principles fur- pared. Then there was the College of ther, were they in the interval to inflict St. Patrick on Stephen's Green, an instia grave injustice and inequality on the tution endeared to Catholics by its assoRoman Catholics of Ireland? He thought ciation with the struggles connected with not. That being so, there was only one that question. He confessed to having other alternative, which was to give to never himself heard very favourable the Roman Catholics of Ireland the same accounts of the teaching in that College; Collegiate privileges which they had but he was willing to bow to the high given to the English and Irish Episcopa- authority of his right hon. Friend the lians. He might be told that he was Member for the University of Edinburgh advocating the scheme of the late Mr. (Mr. Lyon Playfair), who, he knew, had Butt. He acknowledged it; but there expressed a strong opinion in the conwas this difference between his view and trary direction. Therefore, he proposed Mr. Butt's-that he proposed that there that Carlow College and St. Patrick's should be a State endowment given to should be incorporated within the the Catholic College, whereas he (Lord Queen's University. But he might Edmond Fitzmaurice) did not; and Mr. be told that this was not enough, and Butt further proposed that that endow that those two Colleges would not ment should be got by appropriating be able to hold the youth of Ireland, a considerable portion of the revenues who would flock in to obtain a Colof Trinity College. Now, he protested legiate education. Well, his mind was against the disendowment of any corpo- quite open on the question, because ration, unless they could prove abuse he shared the opinions, based on Scotch and misapplication of funds; and no- experience, of his right hon. Friend, body, English or Irish, Catholic or Pro- that University Education was not merely testant, had ever suggested such a thing a luxury of the upper classes; but he in regard to Trinity College, Dublin; believed in any case, at starting, the on the contrary, that institution was one incorporation of two Colleges would be which was always spoken of with respect enough. But that was not all. and admiration by persons of every shade would propose that a general examining He power should be conferred upon the Queen's University, similar to that possessed by the London University in its supplemental charter. He had always considered that the loss of that privilege, through the discovery of a technical error in the supplemental charter actually granted in 1866, was an immense misfortune. He wanted to say a word about that supplemental charter. It had been constantly and falsely represented that the object of those who advised Her Majesty to grant the supplemental charter was surreptitiously, and by a side wind, to introduce the Catholic College into the Queen's University; and he confessed to having believed that himself at one ime. But it was an utter mistake, as was pointed out by Sir Dominic Corrigan in 1872, who spoke with much authority on the question, being Vice Chancellor of the University. He said the supplemental charter was not passed to admit the students of the Roman Catholic University, but was passed to admit, on the same system as the London University, all candidates on undergoing certain examinations; but the Rolls' Court, in deciding against the supplemental charter, merely decided on a legal point-that was, "that the Senate of the University should not accept the charter without the joint assent of Convocation." That was a very important point. What were the words of the abortive Charter? They were these "We do will, ordain, constitute, and declare that the said University, created by our said Charter, shall have power to grant to any person who may have matriculated in the said University, and who may be deemed qualified by the Senate of the said Queen's University in Ireland, to obtain the same, all such or any of the degrees or distinctions which by our said Charter the said Queen's University in Ireland is empowered to grant, notwithstanding that such persons may not have matriculated in any of the said Colleges, or pursued any of their studies therein." Then followed a similar clause, enabling any person to matriculate, although not educated in any of the Queen's Colleges. Now, the reason why the decision of the Rolls' Court was so disastrous was that if the University had been thrown open it would have been possible to endow the University with a variety of prizes and emoluments which could have been competed for upon equal terms by the whole youth of Ireland, whether educated in the Queen's Colleges or not. These, then, were his recommendations Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice to meet the Roman Catholic grievance in Ireland-namely, one or more Catholic Colleges in the Queen's University, and an amendment of the Charter of the University in the direction which he had indicated. And now let him turn to the Bill. Did it do any of these things? Not one. What was the first thing he found in the present Bill? Why, it proposed to establish a new University; and he absolutely denied there was the least necessity for that. It was to be a new secular University apparently, established in a country where there were already two existing secular Universities. Let him ask why this new University was to be established? It appeared it was to be a kind of conduit-pipe or filter through which the interest of £1,500,000 of public money was to distributed amongst a large number of sectarian tea-cups. Great political pressure and chicanery would be brought to bear upon the Senate, and there would be a scramble for the money. If this matter was to be dealt with on the basis of endowments, and of setting up a purely Roman Catholic University, let them discuss the question on its merits. Do not let them have an ingenious scheme to filter away a large sum of money into denominational cups and saucers. It was a great mistake to introduce a Bill of this kind, because, if it did please the Roman Catholic hierarchy, it would only be because they thought that before many years were gone by they would be able to do with the Bill what they liked. The Senate of this University was to have a practically unlimited power of affiliating Colleges. Now, there was no part of the Bill of 1872 which was more attacked than the proposal of affiliating Colleges. It was attacked by nobody more vehemently than by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for the City of Oxford. In his speech he proposed a plan by which that part of the Bill could be got rid of in Committee. After describing it, he said— "In this way, they would get rid of the whole vexed question of affiliated Colleges, and of the denominational and undenominational prejudices against the Bill."-[3 Hansard, cexiv. 1630.] Sir Dominic Corrigan gave the experience both of the London University and of the Queen's University against the plan. What he (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) insisted upon was that whatever was done Parliament should know clearly and distinctly what the Colleges were which it was proposed to benefit. He objected altogether that £1,500,000 of public money should be scrambled for by unknown recipients. He did not wish to dwell too much upon details at that stage; but the House ought to observe that the clauses of this Bill were so drawn that such enormous benefits were proposed to be conferred upon these Colleges that no student would think of entering the University except through their doors; while a direct pecuniary bribe was offered to the youth of Ireland to abandon the old Universities and enter the new. Then he objected to the constitution of the Senate, which was mainly a nominated body, and would, he believed, become the creature of political intrigue and chicanery. That was another bad feature borrowed from the Bill of 1872. Now, as regarded endowment, he wanted to know what claim the Roman Catholic Colleges had to an endowment? Keble, and Hertford, and Selwyn, had not asked for a State endowment. Why did they not? Speaking of the question of endowments reminded him of what was proposed to be done by Her Majesty in Council with respect to a Northern University. They all knew that a few days ago a very large and influential deputation was received by the noble Duke the President of the Council (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon), and the noble Marquess the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (the Marquess of Salisbury), who was also Chancellor of the University of Oxford, and it was urged upon the noble Duke and the noble Marquess that it was necessary to establish in the North of England a new University. Had he had the honour of belonging to the North of England he would have been exceedingly proud to have joined that deputation. The object in view was a most excellent and admirable object, and he desired to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to the proposal in regard to the Colleges which was made by that influential deputation. Did that deputation propose that a sum of money should be given to Owen's College, which was the one College to be mentioned in the projected charter? The gentlemen who composed that deputation did not propose that Owen's College, or any other College which might come within the University as an affiliated body, should receive a handful of money out of the public funds; but they stated that they were prepared to endow the institution themselves. The gentlemen who composed the deputation of the other day did not ask for £1,500,000 of public money-all they asked for were for certain University and College privileges. Turn to a similar scene-turn to his own University. The University of Cambridge had gained of late honourable distinctions by attempting to extend the benefits of University Education outside its own limits by conducting examinations, and now by affiliating Colleges, and he had heard that a scheme for that purpose had been drawn up by the Syndicate, with the sanction of the greatest names of the University, which passed the Senate last week, and which was as certain to be acted upon as was any measure which might receive the sanction of the House in the course of the present Session. Was it proposed to give a sum of money out of the University funds to affiliated Colleges? All that was proposed was to confer upon any College or institution in the United Kingdom which chose to place itself in connection with the University of Cambridge certain facilities in regard to degrees, and a diminution in the number of terms of residence. From first to last in the case to which he was alluding there was not one single word about getting hold of University funds, still less at getting a pull at funds which were under the control of the State, or which were raised from the taxation of the country. They might plead their poverty; but Roman Catholicism was not a local or national religion peculiar to Ireland. Were they not constantly being told in home and foreign newspapers of the numerous and wealth converts who were flocking over to the Church of Rome? Why, there were half-a-dozen Roman Catholic noblemen who, if they would meet together to-morrow, would find it just as easy to endow a Roman Catholic College as the merchant princes of the North to endow the great institutions which were rising under their patronage. They might invite that generous Protestant Peer, Lord. Portarlington, to join them. Such a course, surely, was better and nobler than coming to Parliament, in formâ pauperis, for £1,500,000 of public money only recently taken from another denomina tion. He recollected, during the debates of 1873, that his noble Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who, being at that time Chief Secretary for Ireland, had a responsibility in this matter second only to that of the Prime Minister, speaking on this part of the question, said "The Protestants of Ireland used the mixed Colleges, but the Roman Catholics, for whom they were designed, had seen fit to disapprove them; that, however, was no reason why they to their Councils any favour of the removal which Roman Cath had been brought name; but he had no to wish to substit equality for another. that which was just Catholics of Ireland, which would be unjus of the United Kingd that to pass this Bill which would prove higher interests of ed above every sectaria which, he believed, w ruined by any looki evil past, and by an peared to have taken possession of them, that principle of religious sooner or later they would obtain a Parlia-ther concurrent or mentary endowment, they would endow a Roman Catholic College for themselves."-[3 Hansard, ccxiv. 1266-8.] should not do what all others were free to doestablish their own Colleges and voluntarily endow them. Would anyone get up and say that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were not prepared, or were not able, to endow Colleges for themselves? He believed they were fully able, and that if once they could remove from their minds that fatal delusion which ap prove hurtful, not Amendment propos end of the Question, in or To leave out from the "while this House recogn free by the disestablishme should be devoted to the Ireland, provided they ar desirable to devote addit the support of any secta the further promotion of Ireland till adequate prov elementary teaching in aid from Imperial funds to other parts of the Uni George Campbell,) -instead thereof. Question proposed, He (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) believed that those words of the noble Marquess expressed the sound common sense of this question-that, in regard to matters of discipline, they should allow the Roman Catholics every single privilege which had been given to Protestant Episcopalianism, whether in England or in Ireland; but that, as regarded endowments, they should stand firmly upon those lines which had been adopted by the House of Commons-namely, that there should be no new endowments of any sectarian institution. They were told the other day by the noble Lord the Member for Waterford County (Lord Charles Beresford) that he was in favour of the endowment of a Roman Catholic Univer-proposed to be left ou sity. He hoped that the noble Lord Question." would be consistent, and that when the Navy Estimates were under consideration he would explain the lines upon which Roman Catholic iron-clads and Protestant turret-ships should be built. He (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) believed that the one would not be more ridiculous or baneful than the other, so far as State endowment was concerned. This was a question in which he had taken a great interest. He had been always anxious to meet the just demands of the Irish Roman Catholics. There was one member of his family, of whom he preserved a recollection from his childhood, who had passed the best years of his life out of office because those who occupied the Throne in his country would not admit Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice MR. KAVANAGH the few remarks I int subject by congratulat thanking the noble for Calne (Lord Edr on the good humo terized the remarks upon it as an auspicio it will continue. I a unable to follow the very exhaustive and he made; but, perha for the fate of the 1 know as much about noble Lord, because the length would, per ultimate result on a me the question is a a serious one for the whole country. | ment altogether, but, I may say, they The position I occupy is, perhaps, rather have been more raised by those who are, a delicate one, and I think it is only most of them, interested in the settleright to myself and to my constituents ment of it, and who must largely benefit that I should say a few words as to my if this scheme which we propose were reason for occupying it. I do not think adopted. It is always perfectly clear we owe the House any apology for bring- that unless each party is prepared to ing the measure on, because we all know approach the subject in a spirit of comthat during the last 20 years every Go- promise, a settlement is utterly hopevernment in Office, if it has not itself less. I shall endeavour to deal with the undertaken to deal with the question, objections to which I have referred, and has, at least, admitted the necessity that I will take first those I have referred to something should be done. With re- last. To my mind, the main difficulty of gard to the reason which has influenced dealing with this question has been us in adopting the course we have, of created by the policy of disendowment suggesting a third University instead of which this House endorsed by a large keeping to the two already in existence, majority in 1869, and which hon. Genthat has already been fully explained by tlemen will remember was warmly supmy hon. Friend the Member for Ros- ported and advocated by the Roman common in his introductory speech; and Catholic clergy, and by members of that I should not have thought it necessary persuasion in Ireland. Now, Sir, that to touch upon it, were it not for the fact policy I disapproved of and resisted to that both the noble Lord the Member the best of my power; but I do not for Calne, and the hon. Baronet the attempt or wish for one moment to subMember for Kirkcaldy (Sir George vert what can be done, and, consequently, Campbell), in their remarks raised the this difficulty is placed in my own, and question. Now, Sir, it appears to me, in the way of others who wish to deal not knowing very much about Univer- with this question. I can see no other sity Education, that to deal with the course open. We are driven to adopt question as in connection with the two the lines of the Intermediate Education existing institutions, we should have to Bill. I am happy to say, from the imgo into an immense deal of matter of mense success which it has met with most invidious difficulty. Those who since, I was in hopes that a Bill honestly have tried to draw the line in educa- framed on those lines, so far as they tional subjects between science, history, could be adopted, would be generally and religion, to define where the one accepted as a compromise by the Roman should stop and the other begin, to Catholic clergy of Ireland. I was given sketch a history of nations uncoloured directly to understand that that would be by religion, or to devise a system for so, and looked upon the fact that the hon. teaching the physical and higher Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor branches of science, robbed of the Don) had taken up the question and supernatural, and dragged down to the brought in a Bill on those lines as a level of the rationalist, will appreciate the proof that it had been approved of by difficulties to which I have referred. hierarchy of the Irish Roman Catholic Those pitfalls and dangers have been Church, and would be accepted by them avoided by the lines on which the pre- as a settlement of the question. I hope sent Bill is laid. Anybody who listened I am still correct in that assumption. to the debate which took place on the But, whether I am or not, I think it is introduction of the University Bill of very unfortunate that rumours have got 1873, and, I may say, to all the debates abroad-and I am not accountable for on the English Education Question, will that to the effect that if the Bill is acagree with me that, if it was possible, we cepted by the Roman Catholic clergy it is were right in endeavouring to avoid only as an instalment, and an instalment those dangers and those quicksands. to be followed by a fresh appeal. If But, although by the lines on which that is so, our position is a very difficult this Bill was brought we have succeeded one; and I must say that our chances of in avoiding that, we have at least other success, based upon that, would be very difficulties to meet, and the difficulties slight, and I think that the hon. Memare not only from objections raised by bers opposite, and the clergy of the those upon principle opposed to a settle- Catholic Church should remember that |