increase as being a very serious matter. | extent. But it should be remembered From his experience in the manage- that the incidence of local taxation ment of local affairs, he was quite sure was very different to that of Imperial that these subventions had a tendency taxation. By these subventions in aid to do away with the desire for economy of local objects, property, upon which on the part of the magistrates and the local expenditure was charged, was members of town councils; and he relieved, and the charge put upon thought that it was one of the most un- the Exchequer was levied, to a confortunate circumstances that local ad- siderable extent, upon the consumers ministrations all over the country should of articles paying duty. Putting the show their willingness, from time to time, charge upon the Imperial Exchequer to accept from the Government for the was, in fact, levying it upon people of time being bribes to relinquish their no property to the relief of some of the local administration and their local con- | burdens of property. It did not appear trol. He did not, for one moment, wish to him that that was taking the money out to make any charge against the present of one pocket and putting it into another. Government, for his observations ap- These grants were being continually plied equally to former ones. He con- made, until the sum total of them sidered it was a most serious mistake on swelled up to a very large expenditure, the part of the localities to give up the and local control and management was management of their public business in entirely done away with. At the same return for Government subventions. He time, they formed a very considerable did not attribute this action to the occu- burden upon the taxpayers of the pants of the Treasury Bench, or to any country. This was a most dangerous of the Gentlemen who were now carry-course to pursue upon the part of the ing out this policy in Parliament, so Government, for it was increasing the much as to the permanent officials of expense of the central authority by inthe public Offices. Hon. Gentlemen creasing the general expense, and by would know that the permanent officials relieving local rates. He thought that of public Departments were always | the only practical course for the House pressing forward every system of cen- to pursue was to resist any measures tralization which gave the Department which would increase this system; and greater power over localities. Of course, he should be glad to see any practical that power could not be obtained unless scheme, either in the way which had they were prepared to give money as a been suggested, or by any other means, bribe for the relinquishment of local by which this expenditure should be administration. He objected altogether prevented from increasing year by year. to that system, because he believed it was contrary to the public interest. He had no doubt at all that the system was very much opposed to economy; and he should be very glad to see public opinion out-of-doors brought to bear upon Members of that House in order to put a stop to the system. He was quite aware that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in a speech made a short time ago, justified the policy of giving these subventions to the local authorities, by saying that at least, so far as they were a charge upon property, it was only taking money out of one pocket and putting it into the other. He altogether disputed that proposition. In the first place, they took the money out of one pocket-a considerable amount when everything was reckoned-but it was not put into the other pocket, for the local expenditure was not diminished to an equal

VOL. CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. STEVENSON observed, that the excuse for these grants was that they were to enable the Government to have some control over the efficiency of the police forces in the different parts of the country. The proportion of general aid to local expenditure was first onethird, then one-fourth, and now had increased to one-half. This increase necessarily increased the influence of the Government Inspectors. When the population increased, additional police were put on contrary to the judgment of the local authorities, because the Government had prescribed a certain number of policemen according to the population. That was one objection to the control being taken from the local authorities. A Bill had lately been brought in dealing with loans to local authorities so as to diminish the facilities for borrowing, and to prevent local authorities being led into an extravagant ex

2 B

public good.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE having paid great attention

penditure which they would not otherwise districts, they did not con have thought of. The reason alleged for the Public Works Loan Bill was that local taxation required to be checked. If it were desired to check local expen-ject, would like to make s diture, nothing better could be done tions with regard to it. than abolishing these grants-in-aid. In ture upon the police for his opinion, the whole policy on this gradually increasing, and matter required alteration re-considera- years it had risen by no les tion. £274,000. In 1878-9 the was £871,000; this year it £891,000. These figures he had no hesitation in af there was absolutely no co police force. The figures there was a gradually incr diture throughout the co police force. Even in hi mical country-Scotland pay and clothing was i though it did not keep 1 increase in England. H press upon the Secretary the Home Department th exercise a proper control penditure, it was necessar tion to the details, and into the numbers and pay In his opinion, the best abolish the grant-in-aid, the tax which was collect No proper control could be the expenditure until the ment of the matter was le of the different localities.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON protested against this being taken as an opportunity for entering into a local taxation debate. They were dealing simply with the Vote by which sums were granted in aid of local expenditure, and, in so doing, they were carrying out the decision of that House, not in that Parliament, but come to by a large majority of that House in the previous Parliament. This Vote was simply in pursuance of that decision. Of course, it was quite open to hon. Members to propose to reverse that policy by means of a Motion in that House, but not otherwise. The question of the police in the districts, and the question of local taxation generally, were quite distinct. An hon. Member had insisted that the Home Office had laid down a hard-and-fast line with regard to increasing the police according to the number of the population. So far as his knowledge went, there was no such regulation at all, nor was there any rule of any kind with regard to the number of the police. All that the Inspectors of police had to do was to inspect the force, and to see that it was properly conducted, and sufficient for the maintenance of order. From his own knowledge, he could assert that the localities were allowed to manage their own police, and that the matter was almost entirely left to them. He could give instances where the force was not sufficient for the maintenance of order, and the districts in which that happened were those which maintained their own police force, independent of inspection, and without taking the Government grant. Moreover, those districts were not officered as they ought to be when the necessity for a proper regulation of crime in the country generally was regarded. He had always advocated, and still advocated, an amalgamation of the small police forces; for, however much the maintenance of a very small force |

MR. PARNELL said, not assent to the doctri Baronet the Secretary to that this discussion was i it had not been ruled out the beginning of the S vernment stated, when lities for the discussion o that their chief reason f to give hon. Members m of discussing the Estim the hon. Baronet the S Treasury informed them not to discuss the Estin such a way as he laid do that the hon. Gentlema somewhat from his usu kindly role, in assuming that. He submitted tha debate had been out of it had been in Order, petent for him to use hi and position in trying debate. There were

the Government had given them greater, Ministers that they would consider the opportunities for discussion, he pledged | expediency of making the average of himself, when the Irish Estimates were the grants that had been given to the reached, to use those facilities to the several cities, counties, and boroughs fullest extent, whether the Government during the past four years the maxiliked it or not. He hoped that the Se- mum amount of the subventions. In cretary to the Treasury would not forget that way they would prevent discussions, his character of humbleness in talking such as had arisen on the present occato them. sion in consequence of the enormous increase in the grant. It would be an advantage to the community to know that the great annual increase in this direction had stopped.

MR. MUNTZ objected altogether to Imperial grants in aid of local rates. He did not think that a greater mistake could be committed by the Legislature than this system of giving grants for the encouragement of local extravagance. For many years he had wished

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON remarked, that he had no desire to prevent any hon. Member from discussing any part of the Estimates, and he was sorry that it should be thought that he had been discourteous in what he had said. All he wished to do was to remind hon. Members that they were not discussing local taxation generally, although the police force was a part of the question. If it were necessary to raise a discussion upon the policy of the Go-to see the system abolished; and he vernment in carrying out a system affirmed by a majority in the last Parliament, then what he said was that he hardly thought that was the proper time to raise that discussion. He protested against so raising a discussion as to relieving local taxation upon a Vote which affected only a part of the subject. He was very sorry if it should be thought that he had been discourteous, and he might say that he never intended to threaten any Member.

SIR ANDREW LUSK said, that, so far as his experience went, the present system of the police was very useful and very proper. At any rate, all who came into contact with the police force must confess that the present system was a great improvement upon the former one. The police were something like a local army in the country, and were kept up for the benefit of the nation, and he believed that the expense of the police should be contributed to by everyone. For that reason, he should support the present system. In Ireland a constabulary force was kept up by Imperial funds; and that seemed to him to be very proper at present.

MR. RAMSAY wished to explain that he did not feel that the Secretary to the Treasury intended his remarks to apply to the few observations which he had addressed to the Committee. The point at which he aimed was that Her Majesty's Government should insist upon making the amount which was now given in aid of the police the maximum. He would press upon Her Majesty's

thought his hon. Friend (Mr. Ramsay) was quite right in suggesting that the present grant ought to be the maximum. So long as the grant was continued in its present form the local authorities were encouraged in extravagance; and the more money they had the more they endeavoured to spend. He thought that the effect of centralization in increasing taxation was a matter that ought to be considered by the House.

MR. CLARE READ thought that one of the great reasons for the increase in the amount of the Vote of which so many hon. Members had complained was the competition which went on, in so many instances, among the rural authorities, and that blame in the matter could not fairly be attributed to the action of the Government. Wherever there was a wealthy borough in a county the desire appeared to be to provide it with as many constables as possible; and it was to that cause, and the great increase in the rate of wages, that the augmentation of the Vote was, in his opinion, due.

MR. SULLIVAN would remind the Committee that in Ireland Governments seemed somehow or another always to contrive matters so as to create anomalies more absurd than those which existed in any other part of the Empire. In Dublin, for instance, there was a police force which was not managed by the municipality and which yet had to be paid for out of the local rates.

Vote agreed to.

"That a sum, not exceeding £359,120, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on

the 31st day of March 1880, for the superintendence of Convict Establishments, and for the Maintenance of Convicts in Convict Establishments in England and the Colonies."

(15.) Motion made, and Question pro- | and it was because that state of things posed, had been pointed out that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in reply to a Motion which had been brought forward, had promised that a Royal Commission should be issued to inquire into the whole question of the management and discipline of those establishments. That Commission had been appointed shortly afterwards, and had prosecuted its labours during the Session of 1878. Those labours, he was given to understand, were almost, if not entirely, concluded, and the Report of the Commission would soon be ready to be produced. He thought, therefore, that, taking into account the long time which had elapsed since there had been any discussion on the question, it would be desirable that the Vote should be postponed until hon. Members had the opportunity afforded them of making themselves acquainted with the nature of that Report. He wished, he might add, to bear his humble testimony to the very great service which had been rendered by the hon. Baronet the Member for Midhurst (Sir Henry Holland) as a Member of the Commission. He had heard from many sources in Ireland that the hon. Baronet had taken the greatest pains in the conduct of the inquiry to investigate the condition of the convict es tablishments in that country, which were rather worse than the general run of those institutions. He was, therefore, thankful to him for the manner in which he had discharged a difficult and responsible duty. He would conclude by appealing again to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who, he believed, fully recognized the importance of the question, to consent to the postponement of the Vote.

MR. PARNELL said, he thought the Government ought to consent to the postponement of the Vote until the Report had been laid on the Table of the Royal Commission which had been appointed to inquire into the condition of convict establishments, and which he understood intended to propose certain plans with regard to their future management. Last Session, or rather the Session before, the question of convict establishments had been brought under the notice of the House, and a Commission had been appointed for the purpose of inquiring whether some system of inspection over them would not be advisable, as well as in the case of the borough and county prisons, which were placed on an entirely different footing. The county and borough gaols were originally very much under the direction of the magistrates; and although the Act of 1877 destroyed, to a great extent, the power and functions of the visiting Justices, it still left them a certain amount of authority, and gave them certain facilities for looking after their management. But the convict establishments, which were the outcome of the system of transportation, had been introduced into England when it was found that the Colonies would no longer consent to receive our criminal population. Those establishments were new things; nobody was interested in them. They were not like the borough prisons, which had grown up with the growth of local institutions in England. They were ingrafted on the prison system of the country hastily, with little or no preparation, and with scarcely any safeguards or facilities for local inspection. Hence they were very much shut out from the light of day, and it was almost impossible to investigate any case, of which one might from time to time hear, because every one of the functionaries, from the highest to the lowest, were mixed up in a conspiracy for the purpose of protecting the present system. There was no independent inspection whatever;

MR. ASSHETON CROSS could assure the hon. Gentleman that he had but one object in dealing with the establishments to which his remarks related, and that was that justice should be done, and that no punishment should be inflicted in the prisons of the country except such as was absolutely necessary. The hon. Gentle man might rely upon it that whenever the Report of the Commission was made it would, if it contained any suggestion for the improvement of the management of those establishments, receive the best attention of the Government. He hoped,