when employed on active service beyond the seas," 66 | but he thought that either fresh words should be inserted, or that the words "or incurred the risk of producing" should be left out. MR. A. H. BROWN pointed out that this clause, although it included military correspondents in the words "every person subject to military law," and laid down the punishment to be awarded to officers and soldiers, did not provide, in any way, for punishment of a civilian, who, by writing to a newspaper, for instance, might produce an effect injurious to Her Majesty's Service. The clause, therefore, so far as newspaper corre spondents were concerned, who were not subject to military law, was practically inoperative. He was certainly of opinion that, under this clause, no civilian who happened to be with the Army in the field could be punished for making any disclosure which would be injurious to Her Majesty's Service. MR. STAVELEY HILL referred the hon. Member (Mr. A. H. Brown) to Clause 167, which included, as subject to military law, "all persons who are followers of or accompany Her Majesty's troops," &c. SIR ALEXANDER GORDON pointed out that if it was the intention to try newspaper correspondents by court martial, the Act did not make that provision. were made subject to military law, and were, therefore, subject to this clause. [Admiral Sir WILLIAM EDMONSTONE: Hear, hear.] He was glad to hear the chronic cheer of the hon. and gallant Admiral; but he must remind him that this clause affected newspaper correspondents also. If it was not the intention of the Government that it should do so, it was the fault of the draftsman of the Bill, who certainly almost deserved hanging, for every single alteration in the Bill was made with the object of increasing the punishment. [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: No, no.] He ought, of course, to withdraw that remark, if that was the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Oxford. Still, he must point out that this clause differed from the clause in the Articles of War. The matter was left in the discretion of the court, but not in such a manner as to allow them to deal with the actual effects injurious to Her Majesty's Service alone. It was left to the military authorities, whose powers were really enlarged by other words which, extending the operation of this penal clause, he strongly objected to. The words were or incurred the risk of producing," and might include a letter written by a man to his wife, and which she might foolishly pub-It was clearly a defect in the Bill to lish in the newspapers. If the object of these words was to render the clause more severe than the Article of War, some good reason should be given for it. MAJOR NOLAN thought the case proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Sir William Harcourt) was provided for by the 5th clause of the Bill. If the Committee wished to go any further into that subject, he was prepared to move the insertion of the words or intentionally calculated," which would meet the case of a man who meant to give information; but it rested with the Government to say why they meant to punish a man whether he intended to do so or not, and to give a very strong reason for the proposed alteration. He (Major Nolan) believed that the clause was directed against special correspondents; and if that were so, it would, in his opinion, be much better for the Government to state the fact. The Committee was aware that there were certain arguments in favour of a control being exercised over newspaper correspondents; Mr. E. Jenkins create an offence, as had very truly been pointed out, and then to omit all mention of the means of punishing those persons who committed it. MR. MELDON thought the Committee ought not to be satisfied until they were clearly informed whether the clause was intended to meet the case of newspaper correspondents, or of officers' wives who might publish a letter from their husbands in the newspapers. This clause being penal, and creating a new offence heretofore unknown to the law, it lay upon the Government, clearly, to show some necessity, and produce evidence that the law, as hitherto existing had not worked well. The argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Oxford (Sir William Har court) had seemed to him at first sight to have a good deal of force in it. The case had been assumed by the hon. and learned Gentleman of a person writing a letter knowing that it would have a mischievous effect; and it was asked, why should that person not be punished? The answer was, this was not the inten- | with intent; but the object of the present tion of the clause. The offence intended clause was to get at persons who did to be met was that of a person who not intend to produce the consequences never had any intention to write what desired to be guarded against. He was would result mischievously towards Her prepared to admit that cases of the Majesty's Forces. Therefore, there was kind contemplated should be provided no analogy between the cases of a person against; but the manner of doing so rewho committed a criminal act, and who quired very careful consideration. The should be punished under a clause for object should be to strike at those who "giving information intentionally," and intentionally offended, not at those who, the case which was contemplated by the though they offended, did so without clause of a person unintentionally dis- intent. During the present Session atclosing information which might pro- tention had been called to the case of a duce effects injurious to Her Majesty's correspondent who sent home a report Service. It had not been shown that of the proceedings of one of the the existing law worked badly; and he Generals engaged in the Afghan War, did not think that it would be suffi- and hon. Members all knew what was ciently safe for the Committee to proceed alleged to be the consequences of that to the creation of a new offence upon report. Unless the clause was modified, mere surmise. when the Bill became law, hon. MemCOLONEL STANLEY hoped the Com-bers would find on taking up the newsmittee would not assent to the doctrine that wrong-doing was not wrong-doing unless ill come of it. In this case, the court martial was called upon oath to decide that an offence had been committed in regard to the "Disclosure of the numbers or position of any Forces, or any magazines or stores thereof, or any preparations for, or orders relating to, operations or movements of any Forces, at such time and in such manner as in the opinion of the Court to have produced, or incurred, the risk of producing effects injurious to Her Majesty's Service. He could see no other way than this by which the Service could be safeguarded. He would point out to the Committee that the whole circumstances of war had been so changed by the telegraph at the present day that information was forwarded from one point of the world to another with such rapidity that a person might very well produce effects injurious to the Service without intending to do so altogether. He hoped the Committee would not lose sight of the whole scope of the clause, which involved the honour and safety of the country in time of war. He did not think they were doing too much in demanding that persons should weigh well their words, and consider, before they published them, whether they would be likely injuriously to affect the Public Service. MR. O'CONNOR POWER said, the argument used by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman did not apply to the present case; because, if a man placed an obstruction upon a railway, he did so papers that no reliance could be placed MR. BULWER thought, on reading the clause, that it would not meet the views of hon. Members opposite; but he did not think, even if the wording was altered, that the clause should be restricted in any way, so as to fall short of the intention of Gentlemen on his side of the House. He would suggest | Turkish Army which was read in the that the substitution of the following words would meet the view of the Committee: "And thereby, in the opinion of the court, produces, or attempts to produce, effects injurious to Her Majesty's Service." No one would desire that a person should be punished for having produced injurious effects, perhaps, with the most innocent intention possible. He MR. PARNELL did not think the clause, even if altered, would be satisfactory, so far as regarded newspaper correspondents. It must not be forgotten that the clause was an adaptation of an old Article of War, which had been altered and made more stringent; and at last it had been made to include in its provisions men for whom it was originally in no way intended. thought that if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman really wished to deal with the case of newspaper correspondents, he should introduce a seperate clause for that purpose. Whatever clause it might be necessary to pass with regard to the control of newspaper correspondents, and preventing them making important disclosures, they should be treated as a special class, and be controlled by a special clause; for by subjecting them to the same operation of the same clauses as those which applied to soldiers, they placed them in a position in which no newspaper correspondent ought to be placed. By all means, exact sufficient guarantees that military operations should not be injuriously affected by the articles of newspaper correspondents; but not by the application of the present clause. MR. E. JENKINS thought that the clause could not have received sufficient consideration from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. The question appeared to him to be whether, by the passing of this clause, the object in view, which was to prevent newspaper correspondents from satisfying prurient curiosity, would be attained. He thought not; for it would be remembered that during the Russo-Turkish War, the Czar ordered that no newspaper correspondents should go to the front, with this result--that even he found that it was absolutely necessary to yield to public opinion, and let them accompany the Army. In that case, it was perfectly certain that information came from the Mr. Bulwer Russian Army, and vice versâ. He thought the best regulation for correspondents of the Press was to put them on their honour. But if the clause, as at present, remained in the Bill, he put it to the Committee whether such men as Archibald Forbes would enter a camp, and whether he would not telegraph home all the information he wanted to send without placing himself under the operation of the Act? The points raised seemed to him to be of such importance that, in view of the discussion which was coming later on, he would move to report Progress. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."Mr. Edward Jenkins.) COLONEL STANLEY said, the issue was a comparatively small one, and he trusted that the Committee would come to a decision upon the words-whether they were to stand part of the Bill or not. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR pointed out that the Duke of Wellington was placed in the same difficulties with regard to correspondence from Spain-not only subordinate officers, but officers of very high rank were known to have expressed their opinions about the Army and its stores in a manner far from satisfactory either to the Duke or to the nation; but instead of trying to punish the writers he appealed to their good sense, and pointed to the fact that much of the information obtained by Napoleon was got from letters sent home from the Army. The disordered state of the Crimean Army and its dangerous condition were all pointed out in private letters, and thereby saved from the impending destruction. it was now 11 o'clock, he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would agree to report Progress, according to the arrangement made earlier in the evening. As THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I said I would report Progress; but, of course, I could not fix the time to a few minutes; that would depend upon the progress made. We do not propose to go beyond this clause, which, I understand, has been under discussion for a considerable time; but I think it is only fair and reasonable that the present clause should be finished. MR. O'CONNOR POWER submitted that the arguments put forward against this important clause had not been answered. He supported the Motion to report Progress. SIR HENRY HAVELOCK suggested the insertion of the word "wilfully," before "discloses." SIR HENRY JAMES thought, as the point raised was obviously a difficult as well as a delicate one, that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would do well to re-consider the clause and bring it up on Report. Question put. The Committee divided:-Ayes 38; Noes 146: Majority 108.-(Div. List, No. 95.) On Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill ?" MR. O'CONNOR POWER said, the clause had attracted much attention during the Division, and several hon. Members, who had just entered the House, had expressed their wish to state their opinions upon the subject. He therefore hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to keep his engagement with the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don), would support the Motion which he then made that the Chairman do now leave the Chair. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."-(Mr. O'Connor Power.) THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think hon. Members opposite must have seen that there is every desire, on the part of the Government, to afford them facilities for expressing their views upon this Bill; and, therefore, I think the proposal of my right hon. and gallant Friend is very fair and reasonable. It was understood, at the beginning of the evening, that we should endeavour to report Progress about this time, in order to allow the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) to bring forward his measure, and it was right that such understanding should be acted upon. hope we shall be allowed to finish this clause; but the difficulty raised is one which appears to render further consideration desirable; and what my right hon. and gallant Friend proposes is that the words objected to should be omitted for the present, and that he should consider the Amendment to be brought up on Report. MR. O'CONNOR POWER confessed himself ashamed to enter into any such bargain. He was, however, willing to withdraw his Motion that the Chairman leave the Chair. MR. HOPWOOD said, that why he had objected to the proposal as it was at first made was because, if the Committee assented to its terms, it must be taken to agree to the clause in substance, evening would have been wasted. He in which case all the arguments of the had deemed it right to state that he, for one, could not be bound in that manner. SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT said, there was really some difficulty with MAJOR O'GORMAN wished to say regard to the wording of the clause; that the right hon. Gentleman the Chanand as at about that hour it had been cellor of the Exchequer had not in any agreed that another measure of consider- way fulfilled his promise to the hon. able importance should be introduced, Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor he did not think the Government would Don); but with regard to the main subgain much by going on with the clause.ject he also desired to say a few words. If some time were spent in considering how the Government could amend or deal with the clause the time would not be wasted. COLONEL STANLEY said, if the clause were agreed to he would assent to the omission of the words in question, on the understanding that words of a similar meaning should be introduced on Report. MR. HOPWOOD could not assent to such a bargain as that. COLONEL STANLEY replied, that in that case he could not agree to the omission of the words, He begged leave to point out that it must be all the same to an Army whether it was cut to pieces in consequence of news published to the world by guilty hands, or whether it was destroyed through information derived from innocent parties. Therefore, he maintained that both those people who were really culpable, and those who might not seem to be culpable, should receive precisely the same punishment; and that all information as to proceedings of the Army in the field, which might be made use of by the enemy, should be utterly repressed by law issuing from the House | into power during the last 20 years; and of Commons. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Clause, as amended, agreed to. House resumed. Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock. MOTION. - UNIVERSITY EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL. LEAVE. FIRST READING. THE O'CONOR DON, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill upon University Education, Ireland, said, his first duty was to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer for affording him an opportunity of making the Motion he was about to make at an earlier hour than he himself could command. He felt that in making this Motion, and in asking leave to introduce a Bill dealing with University Education in Ireland, he was undertaking a great responsibility. The question was one which had baffled the greatest statesmen, and had tried the strength of the strongest Governments; and at first sight it might seem extreme folly for any private Member to attempt to deal with it. Yet, perhaps, in this, the apparent weakness of the instrument, consisted its real strength; and although he and those who were associated with him had no strong Party at their back, yet, on the other hand, they had no prejudices to conciliate or to fear, and if they were wanting in the strength possessed by a strong Government, they were freed from the anxiety lest their action in the matter should break up their majority and destroy their strength. In addition to that, they possessed the no small advantage that the Bill they introduced was of no Party character, and that its success or failure could not in any way affect Parties in the House; and, consequently, all temptations to raise difficulties, in order to accomplish Party triumphs, were taken away. It was, fortunately, not necessary for him to enter at any length into a consideration of the urgency of the question. The want of legislation had long been admitted, and had been recognized by almost every Government that had come Major O'Gorman the numerous attempts which had been made to settle it, whilst they proved the inherent difficulties connected with the question, established equally incontestably the necessity for legislation. The position of affairs which, six years ago, had been declared to be scandalously bad, continued to be as scandalous to the present day; and if any change at all had taken place, that change tended rather to increase and intensify the inequalities than to remove them. Fortunately, also, it was not necessary for him to argue that a settlement was demanded by all sections of the Catholic community in Ireland; and although he remembered the time when it used to be asserted that no grievance existed on this subject except a clerical grievance, that assertion would no longer be made. Two very remarkable documents had been lately laid on the Table of the House, one emanating from the Catholic community in Ireland, and bearing 1,100 names that no one could deny represented the wealth, respectability, and intelligence of Catholic Ireland; the other coming from the other side of the Atlantic, and attesting the results which had arisen there in the Dominions of Her Majesty from an honest and successful attempt to meet demands similar to those which now came, and for years had come, from Catholic Ireland. These two documents took away all necessity for entering on any elaborate arguments to prove that the demand for a change existed, or that an honest endeavour to meet it would be unsuccessful. He had said that if the state of things had at all altered since 1873, the alteration had been in the direction of increasing rather than diminishing the necessity of dealing with the subject. Last Session an Act had been passed which could not be left to stand alone. Last Session the Government introduced a measure, and successfully carried it, which would immensely increase the demand for University Education, and would intensify the injustice which arose out of the present state of things. He was happy to say that the Irish Intermediate Education Act had turned out a great success. Already the Board had received a large number of applications from candidates for examination, and of these a considerable number were students in |