The

Majesty and Her Successors, and it then | same power as was now vested in the provided the machinery of revision. The Deans and Chapters of the old foundainitiation of the matter was given to the tions, and that those bodies had not Dean and Chapter, if they thought fit abused their powers. He accepted the to make use of the machinery of the resolutions passed with reference to his Bill. It was then proposed in the Bill plan by the Lower Houses of the Conthat when the Dean and Chapter had vocations of the Provinces of Canterbury drawn up a draft scheme of revision it and York as virtually votes in favour of should be laid before the Bishop. When the second reading of the Bill. It was the Dean and Chapter and the Bishop true that at a meeting of Deans of the had determined how the statutes were new foundations, held on April 4, a to be revised, the scheme upon which resolution was adopted declaring that to they had agreed was to be submitted to his Bill there were serious objections, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and, if both in principle and detail, and that it approved by them, laid before the Queen, was desirable to offer to the measure when it would become law in the man- the unanimons opposition of those asner in which schemes of the Ecclesias- sembled. He had, however, received tical Commissioners in new districts and letters from Deans and Canons who were the like now did. He might be asked not present at that meeting, stating that why, when he was a Dean himself, he they did not sympathize in its views, had not tried to do something in this and even some of those who were premanner? That he had done, for he had sent at it had written to him to say that procured the introduction of a clause if he submitted to some modifications into a Bill of the Ecclesiastical Commis- everybody would be with him. sioners when he was himself Dean, with Dean of Bristol had opposed the Bill in the approval of the then Prime Minister a pamphlet, and asked why, if the Bishop (Earl Russell); but there was a change of Carlisle's object was to confer on Her of Government at the time, and it being Majesty and Her Successors the powers thought that the moment was incon- which the Act passed in the reign of venient for bringing forward the matter, Queen Anne only conferred on that at the request of the late Lord Derby Sovereign for her life, he had not prothe clause was dropped. Again, it posed that in a Bill of a few words? His might be said that this matter did not reply was that a power given to the concern him as a Bishop; but, in reply, Sovereign would never be acted on unless he said it did, because, by reason of machinery for carrying it out was prothe non-revision of the statutes, diffi- vided by the Act. The person who obculties had arisen in connection with jected to such legislative machinery being his own cathedral, and, as Visitor, he provided was like a person who would had been called on to deal with them. say, "Let us have steam; but I object A Royal Commission ad hoc had been to machinery." suggested as an alternative plan to the one provided in his Bill. He had no objection to such a Commission, but it would entail a considerable expense, and he did not know how far it would be viewed with favour by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was not wedded to the details of his own plan. On the contrary, he had, from the first, expressed his wish to see the Bill subjected to examination by a Select Committee of their Lordships' House if it were read a second time. It had been said, as an objection to what he proposed, that it would be dangerous to place the duty of revision in the hands of the Dean and Chapter; but he asked their Lordships to bear in mind that he only proposed to give to the Deans and Chapters of the new foundations the The Bishop of Carlisle

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."

(The Lord Bishop of Carlisle.)

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, whilst fully sympathizing with the intentions of his right rev. Brother, was of opinion that the Bill would not effect the object in view. That object, moreover, was too limited in its scope, and was hardly well worthy of being made the subject of legislation. The Bill would apply to only a small number of cathedrals. His right rev. Brother had told the House that the Deans and Chapters of the older cathedrals had already the power of altering their statutes. If they had, they had scarcely ever used it, nor did he see any probability of their doing so. The statutes of the old cathedrals were ancient and very unsuited to the present time, quite

Lordships did not notice several most important questions which should be dealt with in any legislation worthy of the

name.

The questions to which he referred related to the payments of the singing men, the position of the almsmen, the cathedral libraries, and the minor canons. He held that most of the evils dealt with by his right rev. Brother were imaginary. He was strongly in favour of altering the old Roman Catholic statutes; but any new legislation that was introduced should not confine itself to such alteration. A Commission had, some years ago, reported at great length on the subject before their Lordships, and some of their recommendations had been embodied in legislation, but not all. It might be the opinion of Her Majesty's Ministers that the time had not arrived to ask Parliament to appoint a Commission with legislative powers, as had been done in the case of the Universities; but as 25 years had elapsed since the appointment of the last Royal Commission in connection with cathedrals, and as great changes had taken place in that period in public opinion, it might not be undesirable to refer the matter to another Royal Commission, who could take it up where it was left by their predecessors. Some such course he believed ought to be taken, and he had no doubt that it would be, if not now, at some future time. He was, for his part, anxious that no timo should be lost, as it was dangerous to put off such changes as he contemplated for an indefinite period. There could be no doubt that the cathedrals were much better understood at the present time than in the year 1841, the last occasion on which there had been legislation on the subjects under the consideration of their Lordships. The cathedrals were now, in most respects, doing their work admirably; but they were ham

as unsuited as were the statutes of the new foundations. Why there should be legislation for the statutes of the new foundations, while those of the old were left untouched, was what he did not exactly see. The fact that the old foundations had not used their power in respect of revision, if such power was possessed by them, showed that there was something in the cathedral bodies which made them very averse from change; and, therefore, the passing of this Bill would be simply leaving matters where they were. They were too conservative in their instincts, and individual influence was too great in so small and select a body to hope for much spontaneous action in the direction of reform. That considerable changes were necessary and desirable he did not deny; but they would not, he thought, be brought about by the cathedral bodies themselves unless a distinct suggestion were made in that direction by the Government. Again, statutes had very little influence in the government of the cathedrals. They were governed, not by statutes, but by customs, which had all the force of law in the minds of those who administered their affairs. He was of opinion that there was a necessity for change in this matter; but that change was not likely to originate in the cathedral bodies-it must be suggested by others. It was a fatal blot in this Bill that it placed the initiative in the hands of the body which required to be reformed. The Act of Anne went on the principle of reformation from without. It must be borne in mind, too, that some of the most marked difficulties that had arisen were in connection, not with new, but with old foundations. A difficulty so important had arisen in connection with the cathedral at York that a noble Lord had given Notice of his intention to bring it under the notice of their Lord-pered by difficulties which had already ship's House. A few years ago, it had been found necessary to introduce a special Act of Parliament to alter the relations between the body corporate of the minor canons and the body corporate of the greater canons in the cathedral of St. Paul's. The difficulties that existed before the passing of the Act had thus been removed; but there were a great many other cathedrals in which similar difficulties were continually cropping up. The Bill before their VOL. CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

been pointed out. One of these, to which he had already alluded, was, in his opinion, almost inherent in the present constitution of cathedral bodies. He referred to the power of obstruction which existed in these bodies. He thought it would be unwise to tako steps which would produce no real results, and earnestly hoped that the Government might see their way to call attention, through a Royal Commission or otherwise, to all the difficulties which

his right rev. Brother had brought be- | But that is a cathedral of the old founfore their Lordships, and to endeavour to dation; and, therefore, the Bill of the apply some remedies, not merely in the right rev. Prelate would not at all offer case of the few cathedrals which he had any remedy in that case, which is, I enumerated, but in that of the whole think, one that requires attention. It body of cathedrals. These institutions is necessary, when we are considering were engaged in work which was being this question, that we should not embark more and more appreciated, and the ca- on one of those long investigations thedrals were frequented by classes of which sometimes absorb years, and end persons who would not have thought in proposing results quite disproporof entering them 40 years ago. What tionate to the original necessity which was now wanted was that every mem-justified any movement in the quesber of these cathedral bodies, being tion. I should be myself favourable to adequately remunerated for his services, the idea thrown out by the most rev. should have facilities given him for the Prelate that we ought to meet the diffidischarge of his duties, and that the culties which we have to encounter cathedrals themselves should be gra- rather by previous inquiry than by immedually raised in the estimation of the diate legislation. community to that high place which they were entitled to hold.

THE EARL OF POWIS said, the Bill had been objected to on the ground that it dealt only with the cathedrals of the new foundation; but that objection did not appear to him to be a very strong one, as the cathedrals of the new foundation differed as much from those of the old as Ireland did from Scotland. The argument that the Bill was imperfect because it did not deal with the cathedrals of the old foundation, was very similar to that of certain gentlemen who objected to a Bill about tenant right in Ireland because it did not deal with the Law of Hypothec in Scotland. The Bill only sought to give to the new foundations the powers now possessed by the old; powers which the Chapter of Hereford had exercised as regarded their College of Vicars' Choral. He trusted their Lordships would read the Bill of the right rev. Prelate a second time, on the understanding that it should be referred to a Select Committee of their Lordships' House.

But

THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: I think, my Lords, we are all agreed that some change is necessary in the capitular bodies of cathedrals. So far as the Bill of the right rev. Prelate is concerned, I think its object is one that ought to be encouraged. then, my Lords, it does not meet many cases which appear to me to require to be considered and dealt with. So far as my own experience is concerned, I have had, in my official position, much correspondence respecting what I regarded as a great anomaly in one of our principal cathedral bodies.

The Archbishop of Canterbury

But, in that case, if a Royal Commission were appointed to carry out the investigation, I should be glad that arrangements should be made to procure Reports from time to time from the Royal Commissioners-that they should report with respect to each cathedral, for example, and state what they might recommend should be done in each case. In that way, my Lords, I think we might come to some discreet and judicious limitation of the investigation. As I have said, I am favourable to the suggestion of the most rev. Prelate. I think that something ought to be done. There are anomalies which ought to be removed after due investigation, and I believo that the most prudent course to adopt would be the appointment of a Royal Commission. So far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, that, my Lords, is their opinion, and they are prepared to act upon it.

THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE said, that after the favourable statement just made by the noble Earl he was ready to withdraw the Bill.

Motion and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

HABITUAL DRUNKARDS BILL.-(No. 26.) (The Earl of Shaftesbury.) COMMITTEE.

House in Committee (according to Order).

Preliminary.

Clause 1 (Short title) agreed to,

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK moved to | Parliamentary Returns (Nos. 67, 1873; insert, after Clause 6, new clause

Remaining clauses agreed to, with the College of Science, for which we are Amendment.