PARLIAMENT THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS. QUESTION. the fact that to enter into a discussioning previous to the time of Henry VIII., upon the subject of our future relations and those of the new, about 12 in numwith Afghanistan might, probably, be ber, which were, in fact, monastic bodies inexpedient as regards the Public Ser- transformed into Deans and Chapters. vice; and, indeed, it never was my in- There were important differences betention to enter at all into the question tween the old and the new foundations; of our future relations in that part of but, so far as the present Bill was conthe East. cerned, the principal difference between the two classes was that while the old foundations possessed the power of altering and amending their statutes with the consent of the Visitor, the new foundations had no such power. Henry VIII. did, indeed, give statutes to the new cathedrals; but they were not under the Great Seal and no legal authority. Several attempts were made to put the statutes upon a proper footing; but it was not, from various causes, until the time of Queen Anne that an Act was passed to legalize them, and she died before she had exercised the power of re-modelling the statutes granted to her by that Act. EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I think it would be convenient to your Lordships' House if the noble Earl at the head of the Government could state at what time he proposes the House should rise for the Whitsuntide Recess, and how long that vacation is to last? THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, we propose that the House should rise on Friday, the 30th of May, and meet again on Friday, the 13th of June. SOUTH AFRICA THE ZULU WAR- LORD TRURO said, that on a former occasion the noble Viscount the Under Secretary of State for War stated that the Government awaited information in despatches before sending reinforcements and stores asked for in a telegram from the Cape. It was rumoured that difficulties were experienced in getting the reinforcements; and, under these circumstances, he wished to know, Whether there was any objection to the telegram being laid on the Table of the House? VISCOUNT BURY, in reply, said, that no difficulty would be experienced in getting the reinforcements if it were decided to send them. As to the telegram, with the exception of a few words of it which he had read to the House, it related to Departmental matters, and therefore could not be produced. The statutes of the cathedrals had become antiquated; officers were appointed who had no duties to perform; the statutes contemplated a Communion table which did not exist, regulations were made which could not possibly be carried out, and many things had become absurd by simple lapse of time. Again, there was a very strong objection to these antiquated statutes, on the ground that conscientious people did not like to swear to observe statutes which they knew they could not keep; and great difficulty was experienced when disputes arose between Bishops and Deans and Chapters, or in other cases. He himself had plenty of power in his own cathedral; but in some cases the Bishop of the diocese had very little power. The Bishop of Ely, for example, was actually not able to preach on any day in the year in his own cathedral except by permission of the Dean and Chapter. There had grown up in connection with the cathedrals a body of honorary canons, who received no emo CATHEDRAL STATUTES BILL.-(No. 4.) luments; of this he did not complain, (The Lord Bishop of Carlisle.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read. as there was no funds out of which emoluments could be granted to them; but if these canons could be placed on something like the same footing as the prebendaries of the old foundain tions it would raise the value and status of the office. Things could not bo set right except by an Act of Parliament. His Bill gave the power of revision to the Sovereign, not for the life of Her Majesty, but for the lives of Her THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE, moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the cathedral bodies of this country were divided into two classes-those of the old foundation, which consisted of the cathedrals exist 1 HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 15th May, 1879. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- * land in Ireland, and the tenants should Question put. con The House divided:-Ayes 91; Noes 263 Majority 172.-(Div. List, No. 93.) Words added. Second Reading-Pier and Harbour Orders Con- GOVERNMENT. QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I wish to put a Question to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Argyll) with respect to the inquiry he intends to make to-morrow into the results of the foreign policy of Her Ma Main Question, as amended, put, and jesty's Government in Europe and Asia. I do not know whether the noble Duke agreed to. contemplates, in the discussion which he Second Reading put of for six proposes raising, to refer to the affairs months. SALMON FISHERY LAW AMENDMENT (NO. 2) BILL. On Motion of Colonel KINGSCOTE, Bill to amend the Salmon Fishery Act with relation to fixed engines in tidal waters, ordered to be brought in by Colonel KINGSCOTE, Sir JOSEPH BAILEY, and Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD. INDIAN MARINE BILL. On Motion of Mr. EDWARD STANHOPE, Bill to provide for the observance of Discipline in Her Majesty's Indian Marine Service, ordered to be brought in by Mr. EDWARD STANHOPE and Mr. JoHN G. TALBOT. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 182.] COMMON LAW PROCEDURE AND JUDICATURE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. On Motion of Mr. WADDY, Bill to amend House adjourned at five minutes of Afghanistan; but I must say that, in respect of those affairs, the lips of Her Majesty's Government are now sealed, and, indeed, we should consider any dis cussion on the matter as one which would be injurious to the public interest. The noble Duke, I am sure, will inform me what his purpose is in regard to that part of the subject of which he has given Notice. With respect to the latter branch of the noble Duke's subjectthe result of the foreign policy of Her Majesty's Government in Europe and Asia-Her Majesty's Government will be quite prepared to enter fully into any discussion that may be raised. of THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, we are all aware, through "the ordinary channels of information "-which, I believe, is the Parliamentary expression for the newspapers-that Her Majesty's Government are now in the course negotiation with the new Sovereign of Afghanistan in regard, I suppose, to the new Frontier, which is to be the scientific Frontier referred to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield) in his celebrated speech at the Guildhall, and also with reference to our future relations with Afghanistan. I at once recognize Mr. Shaw PARLIAMENT THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.-QUESTION. EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I think it would be convenient to your Lordships' House if the noble Earl at the head of the Government could state at what time he proposes the House should rise for the Whitsuntide Recess, and how long that vacation is to last? THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, we propose that the House should rise on Friday, the 30th of May, and meet again on Friday, the 13th of June. the fact that to enter into a discussioning previous to the time of Henry VIII., upon the subject of our future relations and those of the new, about 12 in numwith Afghanistan might, probably, be ber, which were, in fact, monastic bodies inexpedient as regards the Public Ser- transformed into Deans and Chapters. vice; and, indeed, it never was my in- There were important differences betention to enter at all into the question tween the old and the new foundations; of our future relations in that part of but, so far as the present Bill was conthe East. cerned, the principal difference between the two classes was that while the old foundations possessed the power of altering and amending their statutes with the consent of the Visitor, the new foundations had no such power. Henry VIII. did, indeed, give statutes to the new cathedrals; but they were not under the Great Seal and no legal authority. Several attempts were made to put the statutes upon a proper footing; but it was not, from various causes, until the time of Queen Anne that an Act was passed to legalize them, and she died before she had exercised the power of re-modelling the statutes granted to her by that Act. The statutes of the cathedrals had become antiquated; officers were appointed who had no duties to perform; the statutes contemplated a Communion table which did not exist, regulations were made which could not possibly be carried out, and many things had become absurd by simple lapse of time. Again, there was a very strong objection to these antiquated statutes, on the ground that conscientious people did not like to swear to observe statutes which they knew they could not keep; and great difficulty was experienced when disputes arose between Bishops and Deans and Chapters, or in other cases. He himself had plenty of power in his own cathedral; but in some cases the Bishop of the diocese had very little power. The Bishop of Ely, for example, was actually not able to preach on any day in the year in his own cathedral except by permission of the Dean and Chapter. There had grown up in connection with the cathedrals a body of honorary canons, who received no emo SOUTH AFRICA - THE ZULU WAR REINFORCEMENTS.-QUESTION. LORD TRURO said, that on a former occasion the noble Viscount the Under Secretary of State for War stated that the Government awaited information in despatches before sending reinforcements and stores asked for in a telegram from the Cape. It was rumoured that difficulties were experienced in getting the reinforcements; and, under these circumstances, he wished to know, Whether there was any objection to the telegram being laid on the Table of the House? VISCOUNT BURY, in reply, said, that no difficulty would be experienced in getting the reinforcements if it were decided to send them. As to the telegram, with the exception of a few words of it which he had read to the House, it related to Departmental matters, and therefore could not be produced. CATHEDRAL STATUTES BILL.-(No. 4.) | luments; of this he did not complain, (The Lord Bishop of Carlisle.) SECOND READING. as there was no funds out of which emoluments could be granted to them; Order of the Day for the Second but if these canons could be placed on Reading, read. THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the cathedral bodies of this country were divided into two classes-those of the old foundation, which consisted of the cathedrals exist something like the same footing as the prebendaries of the old foundations it would raise the value and status of the office. Things could not be set right except by an Act of Parliament. His Bill gave the power of revision to the Sovereign, not for the life of Her Majesty, but for the lives of Her HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 15th May, 1879. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- land in Ireland, and the tenants should keep their holdings under the principles of this Bill. He complained of the Members who simply came down to vote without hearing the debate. The Leaders of the Liberal Party came down to the House when some twopenny-halfpenny Irish question was before them to pat the Irish Members on the back; but when such a question as this, of interest to the whole people of Ireland, was under discussion, they were conspicuous by their absence. When, in the course of time, these Liberal Leaders occupied the Government Bench, they would not find their seat so comfortable as they supposed. Irish Members had FOREIGN POLICY OF HER MAJESTY'S long memories. When a Liberal Government wanted them, they also would know how to remain away. Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 91; Noes 263: Majority 172.-(Div. List, No. 93.) Words added. Second Reading-Pier and Harbour Orders Con- GOVERNMENT. QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I wish to put a Question to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Argyll) with respect to the inquiry he intends to make to-morrow into the results of the foreign policy of Her Ma Main Question, as amended, put, and jesty's Government in Europe and Asia. agreed to. I do not know whether the noble Duke contemplates, in the discussion which he Second Reading put of for six proposes raising, to refer to the affairs months. SALMON FISHERY LAW AMENDMENT (NO. 2) BILL. On Motion of Colonel KINGSCOTE, Bill to amend the Salmon Fishery Act with relation to fixed engines in tidal waters, ordered to be brought in by Colonel KINGSCOTE, Sir JOSEPH BAILEY, and Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD. INDIAN MARINE BILL. On Motion of Mr. EDWARD STANHOPE, Bill to provide for the observance of Discipline in Her Majesty's Indian Marine Service, ordered to be brought in by Mr. EDWARD STANHOPE and Mr. JOHN G. TALBOT. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 182.] of Afghanistan; but I must say that, in THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, we are all aware, through "the ordinary channels of information "-which, I be COMMON LAW PROCEDURE AND JUDICATURE lieve, is the Parliamentary expression ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. On Motion of Mr. WADDY, Bill to amend the Common Law Procedure Acts and the Judicature Act, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WADDY, Mr. WHEELHOUSE, and Mr. RIDLEY. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 181.] House adjourned at five minutes for the newspapers-that Her Majesty's Government are now in the course of negotiation with the new Sovereign of Afghanistan in regard, I suppose, to the new Frontier, which is to be the scientific Frontier referred to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield) in his celebrated speech at the Guildhall, and also with reference to our future relations with Afghanistan. I at once recognize Mr. Shaw 1 PARLIAMENT THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.-QUESTION. the fact that to enter into a discussioning previous to the time of Henry VIII., upon the subject of our future relations and those of the new, about 12 in numwith Afghanistan might, probably, be ber, which were, in fact, monastic bodies inexpedient as regards the Public Ser- transformed into Deans and Chapters. vice; and, indeed, it never was my in- There were important differences betention to enter at all into the question tween the old and the new foundations; of our future relations in that part of but, so far as the present Bill was conthe East. cerned, the principal difference between the two classes was that while the old foundations possessed the power of altering and amending their statutes with the consent of the Visitor, the new foundations had no such power. Henry VIII. did, indeed, give statutes to the new cathedrals; but they were not under the Great Seal and no legal authority. Several attempts were made to put the statutes upon a proper footing; but it was not, from various causes, until the time of Queen Anne that an Act was passed to legalize them, and she died before she had exercised the power of re-modelling the statutes granted to her by that Act. EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I think it would be convenient to your Lordships' House if the noble Earl at the head of the Government could state at what time he proposes the House should rise for the Whitsuntide Recess, and how long that vacation is to last? THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, we propose that the House should rise on Friday, the 30th of May, and meet again on Friday, the 13th of June. SOUTH AFRICA - THE ZULU WAR REINFORCEMENTS.-QUESTION. LORD TRURO said, that on a former occasion the noble Viscount the Under Secretary of State for War stated that the Government awaited information in despatches before sending reinforcements and stores asked for in a telegram from the Cape. It was rumoured that difficulties were experienced in getting the reinforcements; and, under these circumstances, he wished to know, Whether there was any objection to the telegram being laid on the Table of the House? VISCOUNT BURY, in reply, said, that no difficulty would be experienced in getting the reinforcements if it were decided to send them. As to the telegram, with the exception of a few words of it which he had read to the House, it related to Departmental matters, and therefore could not be produced. The statutes of the cathedrals had become antiquated; officers were appointed who had no duties to perform; the statutes contemplated a Communion table which did not exist, regulations were made which could not possibly be carried out, and many things had become absurd by simple lapse of time. Again, there was a very strong objection to these antiquated statutes, on the ground that conscientious people did not like to swear to observe statutes which they knew they could not keep; and great difficulty was experienced when disputes arose between Bishops and Deans and Chapters, or in other cases. He himself had plenty of power in his own cathedral; but in some cases the Bishop of the diocese had very little power. The Bishop of Ely, for example, was actually not able to preach on any day in the year in his own cathedral except by permission of the Dean and Chapter. There had grown up in connection with the cathedrals a body of honorary canons, who received no emo CATHEDRAL STATUTES BILL.-(No. 4.) luments; of this he did not complain, (The Lord Bishop of Carlisle.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read. THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the cathedral bodies of this country were divided into two classes-those of the old foundation, which consisted of the cathedrals exist as there was no funds out of which emoluments could be granted to them; but if these canons could be placed on something like the same footing as the prebendaries of the old foundations it would raise the value and status of the office. Things could not be set right except by an Act of Parliament. His Bill gave the power of revision to the Sovereign, not for the life of Her Majesty, but for the lives of Her |