when five were owing, at all events would | the Bill before the consideration of the be able to recover all his costs in such a House. The hon. Member for Cork matter; but, again, the Judge, who had went on to describe the course he had no discretion as to the raising of the taken on his own ably-managed property rent, and who could only award one and on the property of others in Ireland. year's rent instead of five, had discretion They all knew, taking it on a broad given him not to give the whole costs, rule, that Irish landlords were very good but so much of the costs as, under the landlords, and he had no doubt that circumstances, he might think requisite. many in the House who had property in Was that a fair way to deal with the Ireland were good landlords. But the arrears of rent in Ireland? It might matter became quite different when it be said that the balance was not con- was proposed to take the land arrangefiscated; and certainly the landlord ments out of the scope of the landlords might go into the High Court of Justice, of Ireland. The hon. Member had and seek in some of its divisions the said that nothing had come of the Land balance of the four years' rent, and the Act. [Mr. SHAW: That it did not carry costs, if he was fool enough to resort out all its principles.] That might be to litigation. Once, in the County so; "all" was a big word; but it had, Kilkenny, two gentlemen were com- at any rate, transferred £20,000,000 of peting for the suffrages of the tenant the property of the landlords to the farmers, and one of them announced tenants. At present, there was really as that if returned he would introduce a little of practical hardship or friction in measure to reduce the rents one-half. the relations between landlords and He was cheered to the echo, and the tenants in Ireland as was to be found friends of the other candidate thought at any time in the history of the country. their man was nowhere; but he was In former debates there were only three equal to the occasion, for, addressing or four specific cases of hardship inthe tenant farmers, he said-" Does the flicted by the landlord which used to be villain expect that you will pay the alleged. The Bridge evictions were a other half?" The result was that the godsend on two or three occasions. But candidate who moderately proposed only he had not heard any allegation of that to cut down the rents by half was glad kind in the course of this debate, and to get out of the place with his life. The not one single case had been quoted way in which the clause about sub-letting which would justify such an extreme and assignment was arranged was very measure as the one before the House. ingenious, for Clause 35 was about as It must be borne in mind that no meanice and moderate as anyone would well sure-and, even assuming that the wish for; but it was nibbled away by present Bill became law to-morrowsubsequent clauses until nothing had could do more than benefit the existing been left of it. Clause 38 took away a race of tenants. That was a matter little of it, Clause 39 a great deal of it, which could not be denied by argument. and Clause 40 enabled a coach and Property would be given without comnine or ten horses to be driven through pensation to the existing race of tenants, it. The speeches in support of the and they would be enabled to sell to measure had been extremely interesting, others who had no land that property and some of them had been character- which they held at as high a price as ized by a great amount of research, they pleased. The result would be that and, as might have been expected for future occupiers would stand in the same the nation which supplied the bulk position as the tenants were at present, of the speakers, by much ability and and, no doubt, would apply to their eloquence. The hon. and learned Mem- Representatives to pass for them a new ber for Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy) land law. On the whole, the relamade a speech which was of considerable tions between landlords and tenants ingenuity and ability; but he could not in Ireland were satisfactory. As a help thinking it was delivered largely rule, the tenants in Ireland paid their in reference to some elections which rents promptly and fairly, and he hoped were pending. He would not, however, they would enjoy a very fair measure attempt to follow him through the de- of prosperity, though they might not tails of his argument; but would con- have done so of late. He did not fine himself to the subject-matter of think it was the interests of either The Attorney General for Ireland MR. PATRICK MARTIN remarked, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his speech had not entered upon the principle of the Bill. He had not even attempted to show the House any reasons why the substantial benefits which the Ulster custom, really observed, gave to the Northern tenant should not be secured to all Ireland by law. To confer these benefits on the entire tenantry of Ireland was the substance and essence of the present measure. Instead of argument, Her Majesty's Attorney General minutely and unfairly, in many instances, criticized the clauses of the Bill. He condemned the arbitration clauses in the Bill. But those clauses were in substance copied from an Act obtained by Trinity College, which had passed this House. Indeed, if his right hon. and learned Friend had given the matter the benefit of his consideration, even for a short time, he would have seen that these clauses were more clear and distinct than the Trinity College clauses. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON) said, that in the case of the Trinity College Act the sales were regulated by an average price of products for years. landlord or tenant that they should be | jection made in respect to grazing farms disturbed as they were being disturbed was an example of the unfair way in at the present time. The truest and which the second reading of this Bill best interests of both would be con- was opposed. In 1877, when the Bill was sidered if the Bill were rejected; be- first introduced by the late Mr. Butt, cause, if the second reading were agreed the then Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir to, it would intimate to the tenant Michael Hicks-Beach) said he saw no farmers of Ireland and their friends that reason why grazing farms, as well as there was some chance of some clause others, should not be subject to its being passed in their favour, a chance provisions. Did not the Ulster tenant which did not exist. right apply to grazing as well as to tillage farms? It was then objected that all or none should have the privileges of the extension of the principles and incidents of the custom. The Bill had been met in a way which he trusted would not commend itself to the House. Let him again remind the House the promoters of the Bill sought only to give practical effect to principles recognized and admitted in the Land Act of 1870. He was glad to hear the hon. and gallant Member for New Ross (Colonel Tottenham) give his testimony in regard to the 1st and 2nd clauses of the Bill, and also to hear him express himself in favour of the Ulster tenant right. If the Ulster tenant right had worked so well in Ulster, why, he wished to know, should it not be applied to the whole of Ireland? Upon that point, he thought the right hon. and learned Gentleman might have given some more fitting comments on the arguments that had been advanced in favour of the Bill than that of saying there was nothing in them. On the second reading of the Land Act of 1870, the then Chief Secretary for Ireland stated the Government intended to extend the incidents of the Ulster tenant right custom over the entire of Ireland. It was, therefore, rather unreasonable to call this a measure of confiscation, which simply gave effect to the professed intentions of the framers of the Land Act of 1870. If the voice of the hon. and learned Member, so often listened to with pleasure in that House, but now, alas! stilled for ever, could be once more heard, he would have stated-as he had, indeed, left on record-his conviction that the measure involved no interference with any just right of property, that it was justified by the circumstances of Ireland, the general principle of jurisprudence, the purposes for which, of old, Irish estates had been granted, and the conditions under which they were of right held. "But," said the Attorney General, "no instances of hardship have MR. PATRICK MARTIN said, that the clauses in the Bill were more simple and clearer than the Trinity College clauses, and enabled a more accurate conclusion to be arrived at between the arbitrator and the Judge. No doubt, it had been said it was a monstrous novelty that the Judge should, by this measure, have the power of obtaining the assistance of a jury in land cases; but in railway arbitrations, in all other cases of dispute, except between landlord and tenant, it had been already decided by this House a jury was the proper ultimate tribunal. In those cases, either party had the absolute right to demand a jury. In the case of landlord and tenant, under the present Bill, a discretion was left to the Judge. The ob been given." But he forgot in previous | learned Friend the Attorney General for debates those cases had been already Ireland, it would have been unnecessary substantiated. Assuredly, the striking for me to say anything; but as the hon. and forcible terms in which Mr. O'Brien, | and learned Gentleman has asked me a a deputy lieutenant and gentleman of plain question, I will give him a plain large property in Limerick, showed that answer. He asked me whether the Gothe Land Act of 1870 was powerless to vernment approved of the proposal conprevent rack renting, had not passed tained in the Bill, to extend to the whole from the Attorney General's memory. of Ireland what is known as the Ulster Many instances, if time permitted, could tenant custom? I say at once that the be quoted to show that the Land Act of Ulster tenant custom, like any other 1870 had not removed the grievances it vested interest, is deserving a protection proposed to redress. The Chairman of where it already exists. Those who Queen's County (Mr. Clarke), who was have obtained vested interests under the himself opposed to tenant right, pointed Ulster tenant custom would always reout that the Land Act of 1870 had been ceive from Her Majesty's Government powerless to prevent the consolidation that protection which every legitimate of farms and the sweeping away of the vested interest obtains. Well, the hon. small tenants, and in strong and em- and learned Gentleman asked me to phatic words he pointed out the desira- go further, and to say that this custom bility of further legislation being re- should be extended to districts and quired. Those evils which previously estates upon which it does not now existed had, unfortunately, to some ex- prevail. To that I reply, unhesitatingly, tent, been aggravated by the Act. He that if we begin de novo I cannot consaid it was a mistake to say, what might ceive any worse system upon which land be implied from the speech of the right can be held than that which is known hon. and learned Gentleman, that the as the Ulster custom. What is that Act had had any such operation as to custom? Why, as I said the other day, transfer £20,000,000 from the pockets it is simply a device for locking up the of the landlords to the pockets of the capital, which otherwise ought to be tenants. It would be correct to say the spent upon the soil. The hon. Member Act professed to give to the Irish tenants for Mallow (Mr. MacCarthy) spoke upon the £20,000,000 of improvements made the question of political economy in conwith their money and out of their capital. nection with the matter. In a former But though the Act admitted the moral debate, I ventured to tender the advice claim of the Irish tenants to their im- that the political economist had better provements, anyone who understood the hold his peace in a discussion of this practical working of the provisions of question from the point of view of the the Act knew that this Act took away tenant right advocates; because, from by one clause what it in a previous one the point of view of political economy, professed to give; and, in the result, what can be worse than withdrawing even the most willing Judge could only capital which ought to be employed in award the most miserable and inade- the cultivation of the soil, and not quate compensation for the bona fide ex- merely locking it up-that would be bad penditure of the tenants. In conclusion, enough-but removing it altogether he warned the Government against the from the land? A man comes into a danger of their trifling with the Irish farm under the Ulster custom. people on this most important question. pays down all the money he has, all he He asked the House not to listen to the can collect from his family and friends, arguments so adroitly introduced by the and all he can borrow from usurers and right hon. and learned Gentleman, which others, and what becomes of the money? really were discussions upon the clauses When he leaves the farm the money is, and not the principle of the Bill, and he perhaps, taken to the Colonies, or it is asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland to invested in business miles away from say when the Government intended to the land upon which it ought to be give consideration to the demands indi- spent; and I cannot conceive anybody cated by the Bill. arguing, from the politico-economical point of view, in favour of the adoption of this Ulster tenant custom where it does not prevail. So much for the first MR. J. LOWTHER: I should have thought that after the very able and exhaustive statement of my right hon. and Mr. Patrick Martin Не We part of the Bill. And when I am asked | to this House and ask us to extend the why the Government do not address Ulster system of land tenure in Ireland, themselves to its principles, I say that speak in the same breath of a downthe principle of this Bill is pure, undi- trodden class of occupiers who are luted, unmitigated Communism. That almost destitute of the bare necessaries is my opinion. It is simply a project of life. I ask is it reasonable, is it for taking the property of one man and common sense, to put forward as a regiving it to another, without compen- medy for the state of affairs the persating the person from whom it is taken; petuation of that very system under and I do not hesitate to say that that is which the state of affairs has been called a principle which neither Her Majesty's into existence? I do not know whether Government nor any principal section of the hon. Gentleman who will reply to this House is likely to support. Well, me will admit that I am correct in my an hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. assumption as to his argument-namely, O'Shaughnessy), whose speech I was, that he proposes to stereotype for all unfortunately, prevented from hearing, time a system which he says has hitherto being momentarily called out to other worked so badly. I hope the House business, appears to have made a great will, upon this occusion, express an point of the relative claims of the Eng- opinion without any of those drawbacks lish political parties upon the popular which, upon some recent occasion, appasuffrages of Ireland. Now, I do not rently operated against the expression wish to be drawn into any statement of the real opinion of the House. upon that subject, although it might, have had many Bills introduced, someperhaps, be of some interest, if not to times from this side of the House, and the usual occupants of the front Oppo- sometimes from the other, and most of sition Bench, whose absence has been them have been surrounded by ambigunoted to-day, at any rate to the outside ous clauses, which have prevented the public. I do not know if the hon. and real principle of the Bill from being gallant Gentleman (Sir George Balfour), discussed in that candid manner which, who now occupies a prominent place as the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. upon that Bench, is authorized to ex- Patrick Martin) has just said, is desirpress the views of those who usually sit able. We have been told that some of there; but I think unless the hon. and these Bills are simply plans for giving gallant Gentleman is so delegated, the effect to certain provisions of the Land appearance of those Benches does not Act which have hitherto not been allowed show that any very great amount of fair scope. In other cases, we have sympathy or interest is evinced amongst been told these are really only a few the Leaders of official Liberalism with clauses for maintaining the Land Act. regard to the supposed wrongs of Ire- This Bill, however, has no ambiguity land upon this subject. Whatever may about it. It is, as I said just now, pure, be the opinion of those right hon. Gen- undiluted, unmitigated Communism. It tlemen, and whether they claim to hold proposes to take away property from aloof from expressing an opinion upon those to whom it belongs without any the subject or not, I still entertain a compensation to them; and, therefore, conviction that the vast majority of this I hope the House will reject it. House, drawn from all sections of the House, will be found recording an opinion against the principle of this Bill. We have heard a great deal about fixity of tenure. Now, I can perfectly understand that if the condition of the Ulster occupier were absolutely perfect, that state of bliss might be urged upon us an argument for the extension of similiar conditions to other parts of Ireland. That would be an argument which would commend itself to those who have the interests of the country at heart. But what do we find is the case? We find that those hon. Gentlemen, who come down MR. SHAW, in reply, said, he could not understand why the right hon. Gentleman should have described their proposals as stereotyping present things, where they wished to change those things. He wished to give security of tenure to the tenant, and they had not got that. Now, the right hon. Gentleman stated that the Bill was a piece of pure, undiluted, unmitigated, Communism; but, in his opinion, it was a piece of pure, undiluted common sense, and strictly in accordance with the principles of political economy. If he had a million of money he would invest it in HOUSE OF OF LORDS, Thursday, 15th May, 1879. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- land in Ireland, and the tenants should keep their holdings under the principles of this Bill. He complained of the Members who simply came down to vote without hearing the debate. The Leaders of the Liberal Party came down to the House when some twopenny-halfpenny Irish question was before them to pat the Irish Members on the back; but when such a question as this, of interest to the whole people of Ireland, was under discussion, they were spicuous by their absence. When, in the course of time, these Liberal Leaders occupied the Government Bench, they would not find their seat so comfortable as they supposed. Irish Members had FOREIGN POLICY OF HER MAJESTY'S long memories. When a Liberal Government wanted them, they also would know how to remain away. Question put. con The House divided:-Ayes 91; Noes 263 Majority 172.-(Div. List, No. 93.) Words added. Second Reading-Pier and Harbour Orders Con- Withdrawn-Cathedral Statutes [4]. GOVERNMENT. QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I wish to put a Question to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Argyll) with respect to the inquiry he intends to make to-morrow into the results of the foreign policy of Her MaMain Question, as amended, put, and jesty's Government in Europe and Asia. I do not know whether the noble Duke contemplates, in the discussion which he agreed to. Second Reading put off for six proposes raising, to refer to the affairs months. of Afghanistan; but I must say that, in respect of those affairs, the lips of Her Majesty's Government are now sealed, and, indeed, we should consider any discussion on the matter as one which would be injurious to the public interest. The noble Duke, I am sure, will inform me what his purpose is in regard to that part of the subject of which he has given Notice. With respect to the latter branch of the noble Duke's subjectthe result of the foreign policy of Her Majesty's Government in Europe and Asia-Her Majesty's Government will be quite prepared to enter fully into any discussion that may be raised. we are all aware, through "the ordinary THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, channels of information "-which, I be COMMON LAW PROCEDURE AND JUDICATURE lieve, is the Parliamentary expression ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. On Motion of Mr. WADDY, Bill to amend the Common Law Procedure Acts and the Judicature Act, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WADDY, Mr. WHEELHOUSE, and Mr. RIDLEY. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 181.] House adjourned at five minutes for the newspapers-that Her Majesty's Government are now in the course of negotiation with the new Sovereign of Afghanistan in regard, I suppose, to the new Frontier, which is to be the scientific Frontier referred to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield) in his celebrated speech at the Guildhall, and also with reference to our future relations with Afghanistan. I at once recognize Mr. Shaw |