the backbone of the military system in | present at training in 1878. Therefore, this country, and he trusted that no if to the 86,458 men present at training effort would be spared by the military they added the Militia Reserve, who authorities to increase their efficiency. were apparently included in the cost, the The mobilization of last year showed observation he had made was perfectly most unquestionably that the Militia correct. But he was willing to accept Reserve was a Force which could be the contradiction which had been made relied upon to a greater extent than had by his right hon. and gallant Friend previously been supposed. As regarded (Colonel Stanley). The fact was, that the Army Reserve, the anticipations he had been quoting from one Parliaindulged in were never likely to be mentary Paper, and the right hon. realized; it was not probable that in and gallant Gentleman had referred to 1883 or 1884 we should have more than another. With the deduction, which 42,000 or 43,000 in the Army Reserve must be made, of 30,000 boys and old at most. There was thus all the more men, he did not think that the Militia reason for the right hon. and gallant could be considered in a proper state, Gentleman to adopt every means in his having an average strength per regipower to increase the Militia Reserve. ment of something like 300 men. His The men of that Reserve did not cost right hon. and gallant Friend, as Chairmore than 30s. each a-year; and they man of the Committee upon this subformed, as he had pointed out so long ject, stated that he differed in opinion ago as 1876, the most efficient and sub- from the officers commanding the registantial Reserve we possessed. It was ments of Militia; and he ventured to very satisfactory, also, to find that their suggest that, in time of peace, it was not recent association with the men of the necessary to keep the Militia up to so Line, so far from deteriorating their full an Establishment as at present. To spirit, had improved it. He observed that opinion, he (Lord Elcho) could not that in one regiment, which had turned assent, for he thought that the Militia out 1,000 strong, there were no fewer ought to be kept up to its full Establishthan 500 men who had served as Militia ment in time of peace, if it were to be Reserve in the Regular troops. He made useful in time of war. The Rewould, therefore, venture to press upon port went on to say that in time of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman emergency and danger the Militia could the Secretary of State for War the great be increased, but that the Establishment importance of increasing the Militia in time of peace should be reduced. Reserve. If the Militia Reserve had According to his right hon. and gallant been increased in 1876, they would have Friend's Report, therefore, he was conhad 10,000 more trained men ready to tent to keep the Militia at a low state in take their places in the ranks in 1878, time of peace, and to fill up the ranks and the cost of the increase would have in time of war. But was that a course been little more than £25 to £30 per which would make the Militia available man. He would again ask the right in time of emergency? It was necessary hon. and gallant Gentleman not to de- above all things that the Militia should preciate the value of the Militia Reserve, be well-trained, and able at once on an but to endeavour to increase it; for, in emergency to take its place in the dehis opinion, it was the most efficient, fences of the country. He ventured to the most substantial, and the most econo- think that his remarks upon this point mical Reserve they had. He trusted to were not inconsistent with what he had hear, before very long, that the right previously said, and what appeared in hon. and gallant Gentleman had taken that Report. He would most respecta step in the direction of increasing it. fully urge upon his right hon. and galLORD ELCHO said, that there was lant Friend to take this matter into his nothing whatever, either on page 35, or very serious consideration. on page 5 of the Estimates, to show that the statements he had made, and to which exception had been taken, were wrong. On page 5, he found that the Militia-including permanent Staff and Militia Reserve-out of an Establishment of 137,556 men, had 86,458 men

MR. PARNELL said, that last year he moved an Amendment to reduce this Vote by the sum of £25,000, and he was very glad to see that the Government had that year adopted his suggestion. The Amendment he moved last year was to reduce the item on account of regi

and the exper repeated. H bers who had the Militia w the attention was difficult t to their streng of the labour ing influences sent to the G ing districts to ing men. He tion would ha and that muc took place bet the training of away with.

crepancies to which the noble Lord had | year, altogeth called attention were, therefore, more apparent than real. At the same time, he (Colonel Stanley) was prepared to admit that the state of regiments in the neighbourhood of large towns was not altogether satisfactory. In London, Glasgow, and other great centres, there was a large floating population, and it was impossible to retain a hold upon the men under such circumstances as easily as it could be done in rural districts. The estimated strength of regiments would, he was afraid, always be more or less affected from this cause; but it was satisfactory to know that on an emergency there was very seldom any difficulty in getting men, and that whenever there was a scarcity of civil employment the ranks filled up. The noble

SIR HENR fully recognizin Militia was n pointed out to ber for Haddi that he had fa apprehension o turn, which pr number of men 1878, stated t without leave a leave; but it a number includ men who came was, in the high the Reserve me of them should call to mobilize anticipated that would be absent the absentees so per cent, althou were obliged to very necessitou training period f from February to regiments were times; and it hap men of the Mill served with the July 3, were ab regiments which August, and Se siderable portion which the noble was satisfactorily withstanding the been shown to dep the unfavourable been passed upon teer officers, he felt bound to say t

Lord had somewhat mis-stated the effect of the paragraph of the Report of the Committee of 1876 to which he had referred. The recommendation had only reference to a technical distinction between the Militia proper and the Militia Reserve who, being liable to be withdrawn, did not form an integral portion of the Militia regiments. What was recommended was a change of form, rather than a change of substance. With regard to the head-dress of the Militia, referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Bath (Sir Arthur Hayter), he believed the change to the forage cap had, on the whole, been recognized as advantageous to the Service, and satisfactory to the men themselves. The old shako was really very little worn, and a great deal of time was lost in fitting the men with it. Moreover, it was not so serviceable as the forage cap. With regard to the period of training, no one could regret more than himself the curtailment of it which it had been deemed advisable to make. But the necessity for reducing the Votes having arisen, the present year seemed to be unusually favourable for making an experiment of the kind; at all events, it seemed to be an occasion on which the period of training might be reduced without so much deteriment to the Service as might, under ordinary circumstances, be expected. No fewer than 25,000 of the men had had not one month's but four months' training with regiments of the Line, and there were also a large number of recruits who had also had the advantage, in most cases, of two or three months' training. The

Colonel Stanley

LORD ELCHO said, that there was nothing whatever, either on page 35, or on page 5 of the Estimates, to show that the statements he had made, and to which exception had been taken, were wrong. On page 5, he found that the Militia-including permanent Staff and Militia Reserve-out of an Establishment of 137,556 men, had 86,458 men

Amendment proposed,

"That Sub-head A of £275,000, in respect of

Regimental Pay of Militia, be reduced by £25,000."-(Mr. Parnell.)

Question proposed, "That the said Item be so reduced."

mental pay and allowances for the Militia | done, he should be able to show that in by £25,000; and he hoped that the Go- almost every Vote a larger sum of money vernment would now consent to a fur- was demanded by the right hon. and ther reduction of £25,000 from the gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State Vote. He thought he should be able to for War than he was able to spend, so show the right hon. and gallant Gentle- that he had at all times in his possession man the Secretary of State for War that a large amount of money not required. the further reduction which he proposed That was not the way in which public was not only expedient, but necessary. accounts should be kept; and, unless the He might say that he had listened very right hon. and gallant Gentleman could carefully to the discussion which had adjust the Estimates to the Expenditure, taken place on the Vote, and he con- the Committee should not be asked to sidered that the noble Lord the Member grant sums of money so much in excess for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) was of what was spent. During the present quite right in the criticisms he had made. year there could be no doubt that at In 1877, about 30 per cent of the men least £30,000 more was asked for than were absent from the training; and in would be spent. He begged to move to 1878, about 40 per cent were absent. reduce the Vote by £25,000 under subThe sum asked for last year was £534,000 head A. on account of this Vote, although only £483,000 was spent. Thus, about £50,000 more was taken on account of the Vote than was actually required. In the present Estimates a reduction had been made of £25,000, as he had already mentioned; but the Appropriation Account of the Controller and Auditor COLONEL STANLEY stated that the General last year stated that it was pre- Estimate submitted was for the amount cisely on this item that excessive demands were made. During the years So far as he was aware, there was no required for the Service of the year. 1876-7, 1877-8, more than £50,000 was asked for by the Government than was reason which would justify him in conactually required. Now that the train-senting to the reduction proposed. ing of the Militia was to be shortened Therefore, he hoped that the Commitby seven days in the present year, tee would grant the Vote. another good reason for the reduction appeared. The Amendment which he should move was that the regimental pay and allowances for the Militia be reduced by £25,000, in addition to the reduction of £25,000 made by the Government. The Vote was asked for on account of a much larger number of men than would actually come in to be trained. As nearly £50,000 in a year, for the last three or four years, had been asked for on account of this Vote in excess of what was actually required, he thought there was good reason for the reduction. What was the effect of Parliament voting away all this money? The money was really given to the War Office to do what it liked with. No doubt, the surplus was returned to the Exchequer; but the money was in the hands of the War Office to do what it pleased with. He thought they had arrived at a time when the Votes in the Army Estimates should be submitted to a Select Committee of the House of Commons. If that were

Mr. Parnell

Question put.

The Committee divided:-Ayes 8; Noes 190: Majority 182.-(Div. List, No. 120.)

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(5.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £47,900, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Yeomanry Cavalry Pay and Allowances, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880."

MAJOR O'BEIRNE said, he had a great objection to the manner in which Cavalry officers had been appointed to adjutancies in the Yeomanry for some years past. Since the present system had come into operation, no doubt, great advantage had been experienced by regiments of Yeomanry in obtaining officers from the Regular Cavalry for adjutants. But he must refer to the very objectionable manner in which