ment prescribed for them should not include such effeminate luxuries as the gallant officer had complained of, and that it should conform, as much as possible, to the hard labour to be undergone by them hereafter. He thought it would be very prejudicial to the interests of the Academy at Woolwich that this subject should be allowed to pass unnoticed; and that, as far as practicable, the necessity for Spartan simplicity should be impressed upon the young men.

MAJOR NOLAN had listened with much amusement to the remarks which had just been made with reference to the Royal Academy at Woolwich. The cadets at the present time were young men of 18 or 19 years of age; and there was, in his opinion, nothing in the fact of such young men drinking a pint of claret, for the young ladies in the convents at Paris were accustomed to drink wine both at breakfast and dinner. He could not help thinking that the gallant general referred to felt shocked at the progress made in the world during the last 20 years. It was a very different thing to drink a pint of claret at the present day to what it was 20 years ago, when the wine cost 10s. or 128. a bottle. He did not think that anyone found fault with the qualities displayed by our cadets; and as long as they were physically fit for their duties, it appeared to him a matter of perfect indifference what they drank at their dinner. He could not help thinking that the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy) had been taken in by the Report to which he had referred.

MR. O'DONNELL rose for the purpose of protesting against the assertion of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan), that wine was the common beverage of young ladies in the convents of France. He happened to have some friends in convents in France and Belgium; and he might say that the general rule in those convents was that they were strictly prohibited from using wine of any kind. He did not wish it to go forth that wine was the common beverage of ladies in foreign convents.

MR. BIGGAR had understood the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to state that certain alterations were under consideration, and were intended to be embodied in a Royal Warrant; but, so far as he

knew, the nature of those alterations had not been stated, and he thought it would be much more satisfactory if they were explained to the Committee; if that were done, hon. Members would know what they were dividing upon. He believed that there was nothing more certain than that a man who had made a particular branch of the Profession his special study was far more thought of than an ordinary practitioner. The military authorities prepared a certain number of surgeons for the Medical Service of the Army; but, for some reason or other, they did not train a sufficient number of men for that purpose. The result was that the deficit had to be made up by the employment of irresponsible general practitioners, who had no special knowledge of the particular diseases which were likely to break out in the field, nor had had any experience of the treatment in military hospitals. In each year, recently, they had had an increased charge for the employment of these general practitioners, and a very large sum of money was paid that year by the country on account of them. He thought it would be of great use if the Committee were informed of the alterations which it was proposed to make.

MR. MELDON said, that so far as the new Warrants were concerned, the Committee was in a complete state of uncertainty. At an early period of the Session they were told that a Committee had recommended certain alterations, and that a Warrant was about to be prepared; but up to the present time they had not been told what the Warrant was to consist of. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would only tell them that he withheld the information as a matter of discretion, in view of the Public Service, he (Mr. Meldon) should not think of pressing his present Motion. But no such allegation was made by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. There was another point to which no reply had been given; they had received no explanation why an extra amount of civilian medical men had been employed during the past year. The cost for those persons had increased from £500 in the year before last to no less a sum than £13,805 in the present year. It might be inferred that the present war in South Africa had some

thing to do with that; but these Estimates had been prepared, as they had been told, before the war in South Africa broke out, and the increased amount could not be accounted for on that ground. The other question to which he should like to receive an answer was as to invalided medical men. Army surgeons were now invalided from foreign service and sent home; but they ought not to be taken out of the Service when they had recruited their health. At the present time, when a medical man was invalided and sent home he was not employed in this country when his health was restored; but a civilian was employed in his place. That was a double injury, for it deprived the officer in the Medical Service of half his pay, and it injured the public in having to pay for the civilians, who were brought in unnecessarily. There was no reason why a medical man who had been invalided from abroad, and had recruited his health in this country, should not be capable of discharging his duties at home, even if he were not capable of again undertaking foreign service. | Why should the country be put to the expense of employing civilian medical officers when the medical officers of the Army were perfectly able and willing to discharge the duties? As no explanation had been offered upon these two points, he should feel himself justified in dividing upon the Motion. He could see no justification for saddling the country with the double burden of paying the civilian medical officer as well as the half-pay Army surgeon.

those gentlemen was sometimes at the rate of two guineas, and sometimes one guinea a-day. That, he thought, was a sufficient explanation of the increase in the Vote. He thought that as the matter had now been under discussion for a long time, it would be felt that every information that could be given had been afforded, and that the Vote should now be passed. If any further information were required, he should be happy to furnish it.

MR. PARNELL remarked, that the explanations offered did not seem to touch the point. Attention had been drawn to the fact that from £500, two years ago, the charge for the employment of civilian medical officers had now risen to £13,805. That large sum was spent in obtaining medical practitioners to undertake the duties which the Medical Staff of the Army were not sufficiently numerous to perform. He did not see, however, why so many civilians should be sent out to the Cape, for it prevented the medical officers of the Army from going there. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had alleged that the need of extra medical assistance was caused by the outbreak of the war in Zululand. But the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, in making that explanation, contradicted himself; for he told the House, on a previous occasion, that the Estimates were prepared before the war at the Cape broke out, and, therefore, without taking into account what was required for that war. Therefore, this very large sum £13,805 was not rendered necessary by the warlike operations now being conducted in South Africa. He could not understand what seemed to him to be a very great contradiction between those two statements of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. He should like to know how the Secretary of State for War reconciled the two statements he had made?

of

Mr. Meldon

the time they were actually engaged, and would receive no pension.

MR. MELDON thought that he was entitled to some little explanation of the burden of his speech, which had been passed over without remark. He had stated, that if it was a matter of discretion with his right hon. and gallant Friend to conceal the contents of the Warrant which he proposed issuing, he would not press the matter; if, in the exercise of his discretion, he had told the Committee that he felt bound to withhold the information, then he (Mr. Meldon) should not feel himself compelled to go to a division upon the matter. In respect of medical officers invalided from foreign service, it was not for an increase of their leave that he applied-although he was bound to say that he was very grateful for the concession in that direction-but it was with respect to the employment of civilians in their place when they were competent for the duty. A civilian was employed to discharge the duties of an officer of the Medical Service and was paid in full, while the Army medical officer was kept on half-pay. He thought that the medical officer belonging to the Service should be employed in some Department so soon as he was certified to be fit for it. This point had not been noticed by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, and he hoped they would have some explanation with regard to it. COLONEL STANLEY stated, that he had explained twice what was the intention of the Government. On the first occasion the hon. and learned Gentleman was not present, and he thought the explanation was accepted as satisfactory by the Committee. He repeated the explanation when the hon. and learned Gentleman resumed his place, though not at great length, for there were limits to the patience even of the Committee. With regard to the point that he had pressed upon him, he would repeat what he had previously said, that he was not aware of having received any communication from the hon. and learned Gentleman with respect to the matter; but, if he would allow him, he would refer to his correspondence and ascertain the fact. It was not correct to state, as the hon. and learned Member for Kildare did, that half-pay officers were paid for doing nothing.

and they were paid in order that they might recruit themselves for performing their duties to their country. It was not always found possible to employ a man at home directly he was invalided from India. They had, in the first instance, to look at the duties to be performed; and, in the second, to the persons to perform those duties.

MR. MELDON remarked, that after what had taken place, he did not think it would be of any use troubling the Committee to divide, and he should, therefore, be willing to withdraw his Amendment.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. PARNELL considered the answer of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to the questions that had been put to him not at all satisfactory. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had stated, in reply to his question, that he was not able to say positively that the wounded Zulus had been treated in the military hospitals. He knew that this was an unpleasant subject, because it involved the suggestion that our troops in South Africa had not been carrying on the war in a civilized manner. But he thought it better to go into this matter then, in order to prevent any further mischief being done. Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War take some notice of this matter as regarded the authorities in South Africa? Would he write out to the authorities there, telling them that attention had been directed to the apparent absence of any hospitality, or other form of humanity, towards the wounded Zulus, as was usual? Or, would he further say that it had been thought a remarkable fact that none of the enemy's wounded had been taken into our hospitals? The newspaper correspondents had not mentioned that any wounded had been taken into the military hospitals. If anything of that sort had happened, there was no doubt that the fact would have been mentioned-that wounded Zulus had been brought in and received hospital treatment. But there had been a significant absence of any tidings of that character; and, on the contrary, reports of another sort had

been spread. That morning there was a letter published in one of the Dublin newspapers of a very remarkable character, which professed to come from an officer serving in South Africa. The letter was addressed to a medical student, by whom it was sent to the newspaper. After describing the action at Ginghilovo, and the defeat of the Zulus, the writer went on to say that when the Zulus were in retreat the Native Auxiliaries attacked them, and played the devil with them. All the wounded were assegaied by them, and after the battle no less than 487 dead Zulus were buried.

THE CHAIRMAN felt himself bound to point out to the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) that the matter to which he was now alluding could not be said to have any reference to the point before the Committee. What the hon. Gentleman was alluding to could not reasonably be connected with what might be called attention to the prisoners falling into the hands of the British Forces. He must point out to the hon. Member that he was entirely departing from the subject of the Medical Service of the Army, and was dealing with the conduct of the British troops in the field with regard to the wounded of the enemy-a matter which had nothing to do with the Army Medical Service.

MR. SULLIVAN observed that, of course, the Chairman's decision would be acquiesced in by his hon. Friends, although it seemed to him (Mr. Sullivan) that that decision might be contested. He believed, however, that it had never been, and never would be, questioned. He would wish to point out that they were then discussing the Vote for the Medical Service of the Army. If the Medical Service of the Army were not efficiently rendered, it was open to hon. Members to move to reduce the Vote. Those services were not efficiently rendered, if the medical officers in attendance upon the troops in South Africa did not care for the wounded Zulus who might fall into their hands. With all respect to those gentlemen he must say, that if they did not care for the wounded Zulus that fell into the hands of the British, they would not be doing their duty; and if the medical officers did not do their duty, it was open to the Committee to challenge the Vote.

Mr. Parnell

MR. A. F. EGERTON rose to Order. He ventured to think that the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), in contesting the opinion of the Chair, was himself entirely out of Order.

THE CHAIRMAN said, that it was open to any Member of the Committee to urge a point of Order. The hon. and learned Member did not seem to him to have intended to exceed his right in speaking to Order; but he had endeavoured, so far as he could, and to the best of his ability, to lay down what he believed to be the rule of the Committee upon the subject. He presumed that if the hon. and learned Member for Louth seriously wished to contest the ruling of the Chair, he would take the course which was open to him of making a Motion to report Progress, in order that the Committee might be fortified by the opinion of the House. He understood the hon. and learned Member to be addressing his observations to the Chair, in order to change the view which he had held it right to express upon the subject. Therefore, he did not think it incumbent upon him, so far, to stop him in the remarks he was making. If the hon. and learned Member seriously intended to dispute the ruling of the Chair, it was open to him to move to report Progress, in order that the matter might be brought before the House.

MR. SULLIVAN thanked the Chairman for his decision upon the point which was now raised. He did not understand him that he ruled his hon. Friend was out of Order. He believed he was correct in saying that he had not ruled that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) was out of Order, but that he was going somewhat wide of the mark, which was a very different thing.

THE CHAIRMAN said, that he had endeavoured to explain to the Committee his opinion that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) was out of Order; he was still of that opinion.

MR. PARNELL inquired whether the Chairman had ruled that he was out of Order in directing attention to the necessity of treating the wounded Zulus who might be taken in action in South Africa in the same way as their own soldiers were treated? As he understood the ruling, it was that he was out of Order in reading extracts from a letter which bore, in his opinion, not upon the of the treatment of the wounded question