1915 Ireland-Forcible Dispersion {COMMONS} of a Meeting at Cookstown. 1916

CRIMINAL CODE BILL-MEMORANDUM officers and privates at Rorke's Drift,

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR | vision he had made for the spiritual IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON): The Lord wants of the Roman Catholic soldiers Chancellor of Ireland has recently re- serving in South Africa. By a Return quested the Judges of the County Courts recently moved for and made in that to meet and to select some of their body House, it appeared that some of the to confer with him as regards the duties regiments now employed in South Africa of the Registrars. were very largely composed of Roman Catholic soldiers, and he and others were desirous to know what arrangements had been made for sending Roman Catholic chaplains out there to minister to the spiritual wants of the men.

SOUTH AFRICA-THE TRANSVAAL.

QUESTION.

COLONEL STANLEY said, he stated a few days ago what number of Catholic chaplains had been sent out to the Cape. That number was proportioned, as they considered it, to the ordinary requirements of a Force of the description now serving in South Africa. He also stated that he awaited, before sending any further chaplains out-Roman Catholic or otherwise-some demand from the General Officer commanding the Forces. understood that there were clergymen of all denominations on the spot, whose services could be secured; and that a certain number of them had been em

MR. COURTNEY asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will lay on the Table a despatch of Sir Bartle Frere, which has been telegraphed to the "Standard" some time ago, relating to his interview with the Boers of the Transvaal, and to a memorial which they have presented to him for transmission to the home Government; also, whether the right hon. Gentleman is able to confirm the report which has since appeared, that the Volksraad of the Orange Free State have passed a resolution recommending the restoration of the independence of the Transvaal? SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Iployed under the general powers which have received no information as to the resolution stated to have been passed by the Volksraad of the Orange Free State. The despatch from Sir Bartle Frere, which was telegraphed to The Standard, has reached me; but I cannot yet state when it can be pre-lains. sented to Parliament, as I think it would be fair to Sir Bartle Frere that other despatches which he has sent from the Transvaal should be published together with it, if this can be done without injury to the Public Service; and some of them must be still on their way, as the last received was dated some days before he left the Transvaal.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES.

[Progress.]

SUPPLY-considered in Committee. (In the Committee.)

(1.) £50,600, Divine Service.

MR. PARNELL said, it would be very interesting to many people in Ireland, if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would state to the Committee what pro

the General Officer commanding possessed. He (Colonel Stanley) was not aware of any want in that respect, and until such want was notified to him, he did not think it necessary to send out more than the usual proportion of chap

MR. SULLIVAN said, he was sorry to find, from private communications he had had from South Africa, that matters in this respect were by no means as satisfactory as he was sure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War could himself wish. With very great respect personally, for now he was simply dealing with the Office the right hon. and gallant Gentleman held, he was bound to say that he could not accept the doctrine laid down by the Secretary of State for War-namely, that he was not to make provision for the spiritual wants of the soldiers serving abroad until some complaint was made to him on the subject. Surely, the spiritual wants of the soldiers were worth caring for by anticipation, as well as other wants. He had no doubt that the personal desire of the Secretary of State for War was to do what was right; but the system he had advocated was most objectionable. He (Mr. Sullivan) trusted implicitly in the private accounts he had

received from South Africa, and he could | the present matter, he had to state that say that the greatest dissatisfaction pre- there was a standing rule that payments vailed there at the conduct of some of were made for officiating clergymen the military authorities in reference to wherever there was a certain number of this matter. It was not always that the people of a particular religion to be progood disposition of the War Office was vided for. There had been either some able to manifest itself in its subordi- misrepresentation, or some fact had not nates, when they were at such a dis- been made known which prevented the tance from London. Nothing but the usual rule applying in this instance. He word of the right hon. and gallant Gentle- should be glad if the hon. Gentleman man the Secretary of State for War, would kindly forward him particulars sent out to the spot, would cause his of the case, and he would inquire into wishes to be attended to. He trusted it. With regard to the Cape, what he the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wished to be understood was this-that would be able to assure the Committee he was not adverse to meet the spiritual that he would send out instructions on the wants of either the officers or men as subject. By the accounts he (Mr. Sulli- far as possible; but that information van) had received from trustworthy had been given to him to the effect that sources, he knew that the military autho- there were already at the Cape a suffirities treated in a very off-hand manner, cient number of clergymen of the various and with scant courtesy, any applica- persuasions who could perform the tions as to the spiritual wants of the duties of military chaplains. Inasmuch Catholic soldiers, who were shedding as these clergymen were on the spot, he their blood under their colours in South did not consider it for the advantage of Africa. the public or of the men themselves to send out others, so that there would be two people to do the work of one. Vote agreed to.

MR. O'DONNELL said, that under that Vote he wished to make a complaint and ask for information. He noticed an item for the payment of clergymen performing divine service for military prisoners. He was informed that at a very recent period, in the gaol at Taunton, there were between 50 and 60 Catholic military prisoners; but that there was no provision whatever for service for them. The military prisoners of the other religions had every opportunity for assisting in divine worship, and did, in fact, on Sunday, attend the ministrations of their clergyman. The Catholic prisoners were strictly locked up on Sundays; while their comrades were able to attend church. He knew this state of affairs existed until a short time ago, and he was not sure that it had been remedied. He trusted that it had. If the present was an inconvenient time at which to ask for information on the subject, he should be glad to postpone the question.

COLONEL STANLEY said, that hon. Gentlemen would very materially assist them in carrying out that which was their wish and the wish of the Committee, if they would forward to him any instances, properly authenticated, such as that cited by the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell). In cases of this description, he uniformly caused inquiry to be made. With regard to VOL. CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £29,400, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Administration of Military Law, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880."

MAJOR O'BEIRNE moved the reduc tion of the Vote by £2,000, the pay of the Judge Advocate General. He pointed out that in the evidence given before the Select Committee on the Army Discipline Bill it was stated by Mr. O'Dowd that the opinion of the Judge Advocate General had no legal effect whatever; that the Commander-in-Chief could set aside the opinion of the Judge Advocate General. If that were the case, he could not see the use of the appointment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item of £2,000, for the Salary of

the Judge Advocate General, be omitted from the proposed Vote.”—(Major O’Beirne.)

COLONEL STANLEY said, the Committee would well understand that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was present and ready to answer all matters connected with his Department; but they would easily see why the duty of explaining the Vote and of showing its

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necessity should rather devolve upon proposed; but he had been induced to him than upon the right hon. and learned withdraw it without the slightest consulGentleman the Judge Advocate General. tation whatever with the hon. and galSo far as he (Colonel Stanley) was able lant Gentleman (Major O'Beirne), and to speak, both from personal knowledge for a very different purpose. The object and otherwise, he was bound to demur he had in view was to raise a special to the doctrine the hon. and gallant point of military law, upon which there Gentleman (Major O'Beirne) had laid had recently been a very grave and down, even though he might have quoted lamentable difference of opinion on the correctly the evidence given before the part of the Department which the right Select Committee by Mr. O'Dowd. hon. and gallant Gentleman himself That evidence, of course, required to be (Colonel Stanley) represented. The subcarefully examined, not only in itself, ject had, of late, been debated with very but in its context, and without having considerable and momentous, and, in seen it, he did not feel in a position to some respects, lamentable results to the express an opinion upon it. The Office Public Service. It was with regard to of Judge Advocate General had been one the interpretation of that clause of the which had been handed down from a re- Army Reserve Act of 1867 which related mote time in one form or another; and to the employment or non-employment, there had always been felt to be a cer- in the recent despatch of re-inforcements tain advantage in having, apart from the to the Cape, of those men of the Army Administration of the Army, a perfectly Reserve who had expressed their willingindependent tribunal to which courts ness to volunteer for service. It would martial could be sent, and which was be in the recollection of hon. Members not under the control of the War Office of the Committee, and in that of others, authorities. It had been always held that very early in the present Session he that in having a Court of that nature asked a Question of the Secretary of considerable advantage resulted, both to State for War, as to whether he could the Service and to the soldier. The Office not avail himself, under the 11th clause of Judge Advocate General must neces- of the Army Reserve Act of 1867, and in sarily be, to a certain extent, influenced the emergency which had recently ocby the Bill which was now before the curred, of the very valuable and most House, and he did not suppose that any efficient services of those men of the office of that sort would be retained on Army Reserve who were willing to vothe Estimates without due inquiry, and lunteer for service? The answer which without their having satisfied themselves the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that every reason did exist for its main-gave was in direct contradiction of the tenance. He was certainly not prepared answer they received to a like Question at the present time, notwithstanding the last week. For this reason, it was nearguments of the hon. and gallant Mem-cessary for the satisfaction of those perber (Major O'Beirne), or from what he had heard otherwise, to assent to the reduction of the Vote; but, on the contrary, he believed that the Judge Advocate General and his Office were very valuable, and ought to be preserved; because it was very desirable that there should be a careful examination of the proceedings of courts martial from an outside authority, such as the Judge Advocate General, who was entirely independent of the War Office. Up to the present, the Office had been attended with advantage, and he hoped the hon. and gallant Gentleman would not consider it his duty to press his Amendment at the present time, but allow the Vote to pass.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK said, he had a similar Amendment upon the Paper to the one which had just been Colonel Stanley

sons interested in the matter that some explanation should be given. The answer which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War gave on the 21st of February to his (Sir Henry Havelock's) Question, as to whether the Army Reserve men who were willing to volunteer could be employed for service at the Cape, was as follows:

'Sir, as a matter of fact, I am not aware that any men of the Army Reserve have volunteered for service at the Cape, although I have no be very ready to do so if an opportunity were doubt, from all that I have heard, they would

given. With regard to the second Question, I must speak with some reservation; but, as I am advised at present, the men who have joined the Army Reserve are covered by the Statute Law of 1867, under which they are allowed to serve upon two conditions-first, a Proclamation under section 10 in case of a national emergency; and, secondly, by volunteering for duty. Under