which they had selected for their econo- | Bombay riots. He felt it his duty to mic experiments ?" and seemed to think state that the latest information which that the poverty of India was a sufficient the Government had received upon this reason for leaving her without Free subject was, he was happy to say, that Trade. Then the right hon. Gentleman these disturbances had in them nothing invited them to compare that with their whatever of a political character; and the conduct towards Canada, which, as he opinion of those best qualified to judge seemed to imply, we permitted to settle was that there was nothing very serious her own fiscal system, because we were about them to which it was necessary to afraid to meddle with her. Those were attach importance. His right hon. extraordinary remarks to come from a Friend the Member for Greenwich Free Trader like his right hon. Friend. seemed to think that India had within They seemed entirely to misapprehend the last few years made a very much the nature of the Free Trade argument. smaller improvement in its social conWhen the right hon. Gentleman said dition than we had a right to expect, India was SO poor that we ought and, at the same time, he appeared to not to force her to adopt Free Trade, minimize the advance which had actually one might think that, in his opinion, taken place. With regard to that, he Free Trade was a costly luxury. And could only say that trustworthy Civil when he said that we allowed our Co- servants who had spent the last 25 lonies to adopt their own system and or 30 years in India, and had lately recompelled India to adopt ours, one turned, were of opinion that there was might imagine that Free Trade was an nothing more remarkable than the economic theory devised for the benefit changes which had taken place in that of Great Britain, and which we propa- country during the last quarter of a cengated by force wherever we thought we tury. There had, as they all knew, been might do so with impunity. Such argu- an advance in education, and the maments seemed to him to miss the whole terial prosperity of the people, which point of the Free Trade doctrine. What although retarded, as it undoubtedly had was the essence of that doctrine, and been, by Famines, had in more recent why was it absolutely opposed to the im- times considerably advanced. His right position of differential duties? For this hon. Friend seemed to think that since reason that the result of such duties was Her Majesty the Queen had been prothat the unfortunate consumer had to pay claimed Empress of India a very different a great deal more out of his own pocket condition of things had been brought than came into the Treasury from the about, and he suggested that not only tax on the article he bought, the dif- the financial condition, but the financial ference going into the pocket of the legislation of India had gone to the bad. manufacturer who was protected. But With the permission of the House, he the poorer the country was the less it would touch upon two or three points to could afford so to subsidize the producer. which reference had been made. In the and the more important was it to give first place, the right hon. Gentleman had it the boon of Free Trade. It was only condemned, in no measured terms, the a rich country that could afford to be War in Afghanistan. Well, the House Protectionist. and the country had decided that question; and by the brilliant success of the British arms we had obtained not only a strong Frontier on the NorthWest of India, but, as the Government believed, the friendship of the Ruler of Afghanistan. His right hon Friend had dwelt, also, upon the remission of the cotton duties, and appeared entirely to disapprove the action of the Government with reference to those duties; but he (Mr. E. Stanhope) had noticed that when a Motion upon this subject was brought forward by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Briggs) neither he nor any other right hon Gentleman were in their

MR. E. STANHOPE said, he had a few observations which, with the permission of the House, he desired to make before the debate came to a conclusion, especially as during the two former nights of the discussion certain questions had been addressed to him, and several matters of a controversial character had been referred to in the course of the evening by his right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Gladstone). His right hon. Friend had indulged in very gloomy anticipations as to the future of India, and, among other things, had pointed to the case of the

Mr. Balfour

places, and the House only now had it in | made by the Government, and conon the authority of the right hon. Gentle-sider them upon their merits. It had been man that he resolutely opposed the policy a source of satisfaction that the policy of of Her Majesty's Government. He had the Government had met with the general asked why they had thought it necessary approval of the House of Commons. to remit any portion of the import duties They would, no doubt, have very great in preference to the export duties? The difficulties with which to contend in reason was simple; the House of Com- carrying out a policy of reduction of mons had declared by a unanimous Vote Expenditure; but to that reduction that the remission should be first made in that House as well as the Governthe cotton duties. Another conclusive rea- ment were pledged; and when Lord son was, that if they had to deal with the Lytton entered upon that difficult task, export duty on rice they would have had he would have the gratification of feeling to supply the loss by making a provision that he had the support not only of Her to the extent of nearly £500,000; but Majesty's Government at home but of by extending the exemption to a certain the House of Commons, in the measures portion of the cotton goods imported into which he might introduce. At the same Îndia, it was found that they could give time, it was perfectly well known that specific relief to that portion of the trade everybody was ready to support ecowhich was seriously hampered by pro- nomy in the abstract; but in matters tective duties on imports by sacrificing of detail there was always a great dif£150,000 a-year. Again, his right hon. ference of opinion. The right hon. Friend appeared to think that during the Gentleman seemed to suggest that it time in which Lord Lytton had been in was necessary to effect a reduction of India, grave events had happened which annual expenditure to the extent of placed the financial system in India in £4,000,000, and based this view of the a worse state. Now, as far as he was case solely upon an opinion expressed able to judge, there was very little to by the hon. Member for the Elgin Burghs support any such contention, although (Mr. Grant Duff) who, however, if he his right hon. Friend had managed to remembered rightly, had not put this drag in every conceivable topic-such as forward as a thing which ought to be the legislation with respect to arms and done, but as a thing which might posthe Vernacular Press, and other matters sibly be done, because a considerable reof prejudice against the Government of duction was made some years ago. The India. The fact was that Lord Lytton policy which the Government had adopted and the Government of India had had was simply this-they would endeavour to deal with a most exceptional state of in every financial year to secure a bond things, for instance, with the terrible loss fide surplus of £2,000,000 sterling, by exchange. They had also been obliged which, if it could be secured year by to contend with Famines; but, in spite of year, would, as the Government believed, all this, what had they achieved? They place the finances of India upon a had advanced in a very material degree the thoroughly sound basis. This was a propolicy of decentralization happily com- position which had never been contromenced by Lord Mayo, which everybody verted, and, relying upon it, he asserted would admit to be of the greatest possible that the reduction indispensably necesadvantage to India; they had equalized sary to secure the object in view was far the tax on salt which previous financiers less than that recommended by the right had desired to accomplish; and they had hon. Gentleman. Coming to the item of introduced enormous reforms into the Public Works, the Government had import and export tariff of the country. been told that they were reducing the That was a catalogue of services which expenditure in a sort of panic; but nowould one day be fully recognized, but thing could be further from the real which his right hon. Friend did not facts of the case. The policy of the think it worth while to notice in the Government was to lay down for their view which he had taken of the finan- Public Works expenditure as definite a cial situation. But he (Mr. E. Stan- rule as possible; and they desired to fix hope) believed that neither the House the limit of Public Works expenditure at nor the country would desire to listen to a sum which, in ordinary years, could be any recriminations, and that they would borrowed without any extraordinary dislook at the substantial propositions now turbance of the money market. The [Third Night.]

be given; but with regard to its composition, he was unable at that moment to give any exact information. Some of the Members to be appointed were, however, known; and he need not say that a certain telegram, which had been forwarded from India, as to the composition of the Commission, was entirely with

long to give the House further information with regard to the subject, and to state fully what the construction of the Commission would be. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that he hoped the Government did not look for a small result. As he had stated on a previous occasion, they were led to believe by the Government of India that a very substantial result could be arrived at with regard to the Army expenditure, a result which, he trusted, would be fully realized at no distant date. Again, it was asked what was to be the effect of the changes which had taken place on the North-West Frontier of India upon the Army expenditure? Upon that subject he did not wish to give the House any statement of his own at the present time. Undoubtedly, expenses would be incurred; but, on the other hand, that expenditure would, to a great

hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. J. K. | Commission which would be appointed Cross), in his excellent speech, had ob- for that purpose. To that Commission jected to a reduction of expenditure un-important and definite instructions would less there was a reduction of the Staff also. Undoubtedly, the latter would have to be reduced; that was an inevitable necessity. And, again, it was also unavoidable that a certain number of labourers in India should be thrown out of employment. They did not propose to make the whole reduction at once; but it would be made by the Govern-out authority. But he trusted before ment of India as opportunity offered. If the House should approve that policy, then in the Budget Statement of next year the whole amount to be taken for the capital expenditure on Public Works would be limited to £2,500,000. There was another point to which he must allude. It had been suggested that the danger of any such reduction as was now proposed was that there might be a disposition to stop necessary repairs; but, in his opinion, there could be no worse economy than such a proceeding. They must spend as much money as was necessary to keep the works which had been already constructed in proper repair; and as it was their desire to show a good balance-sheet, with regard to the works in question, they had the strongest motive for so doing. He next came to the Army, and would remind the House that the effect of the re-organization of the Army, effected by the Go-extent, be compensated by the invernment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), was to throw increased charges on India. The Duke of Argyll, to his credit, protested against those increased charges being thrown on India, and, so far as he was concerned, did his best to prevent it; but he had no power in the matter, and the fact was, as had been pointed out on several occasions, that extra charges for the Army had been thrown upon India without the Indian authorities being consulted. The time, in his opinion, had arrived when some of those questions must be re-considered. As to the reduction of Army expenditure, the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) had asked him the other day whether he could give some further account of what it was proposed to do; but he was sorry to say that he was not able to give him any full details on the subject. The hon. Member, however, was aware that this question, as well as that of the re-organization of the Indian Army, was about to be dealt with by a Mr. E. Stanhope

creased security to the North-West Frontier. He admitted at once, however, that some works would be necessary; for instance, the construction of railways on the Frontier of Afghanistan, some extension of which, at least in that direction, would be inevitable, and he felt sure the House would agree that if they could push on those very important works it would conduce very much to the security of our Frontier. With regard to the "cutting down" in the Civil Service, suggested by his right hon. Friend, the subject of reduction in this Department deserved grave consideration; but to use vague language about reduction appeared to him to be utterly useless, and calculated to inspire distrust amongst those who were likely to enter our service. If, however, the Government thought it just that a reduction should be made in the salaries or pensions, they would come down to the House with a specific proposition to that effect. Having indicated

counts of the gain they experienced in consequence of the increased amount received for opium. He was scarcely prepared for the point raised by the hon. Member, but the fact, if it were true, ought to appear in the opium Returns; but he found that while they used to get £133, £138, and £139

forecast of what was likely to happen with respect to the demand for silver.

MR. J. K. CROSS: I said a forecast as to the amount of silver you will have to sell in future.

the other day their intended policy of employing a greater number of Natives than heretofore in the Civil Service of India, he was glad to assure the House that, in his opinion, when the actual proposal was seen, it would be found of great importance, and to offer to Natives a larger sphere of usefulness in the service of the country. Upon that sub-per chest for their opium, since the ject Correspondence had been passing silver difficulty they had been receiving between the Secretary of State for India for the years 1875-6, £125; for 1876-7, and the Indian Government, which £128; for 1877-8, £132; and for the would be laid upon the Table of the year 1878-9, which was an incomplete House; but, perhaps, he might be year, £143 per chest. With the last allowed to reserve his opinion whether single exception, which would not, when they would be presented at the present the Returns were complete, prove to be stage, or their presentation deferred one, the price of opium per chest was until the Correspondence was complete. lower since the fall in silver than it was His right hon. Friend had urged upon before. The reason for the gain upon Her Majesty's Government to recom- opium was that the sales had increased mend that, as far as possible, Indian ex- from 45,000 to 55,000 chests a-year. penditure should be localized in India; Passing from that point, the hon. Member and upon this point he might say that for Bolton had urged upon the Governthey had always instructed the Government that they ought to have given a good ment of India to make as many contracts in India as possible; if these contracts could be made and paid for in silver, so much the better for them. The right hon. Gentleman had gone on to urge that some greater financial MR. E. STANHOPE said, he had cercontrol, such as that which existed by tainly understood the hon. Member in a the Treasury in England, was very different sense; but with regard to a desirable; but it would appear that, forecast of the future, such a feat was in so doing, he underrated the exist- certainly beyond the limited powers ing Financial Department in Calcutta, which he possessed, and the speech of which subjected all schemes to the most the right hon. Gentleman the Member rigid investigation, and in consequence for the City of London showed how of which it would probably not be far difficult it would be to attempt to make from the truth to say that it was as one. One event alone, the suspension much disliked as the Treasury in this of the sale of silver on the part of Gercountry. As for the scheme of financial many, had entirely changed the aspect control which the right hon. Gentleman of affairs. It remained for him to thank had suggested, it was too grave a mat- the right hon. Gentleman the Member ter for him to express any opinion upon for the City of London, with the greater it off-hand; and he would, therefore, pass part of whose speech he cordially agreed, on to other points. First, there had been especially for his sympathetic expressions a great difference of opinion concerning with regard to the Indian Government the loss by exchange; and it was a fact in the present conditions of affairs; he that, while, on the one hand, the right had pointed out great difficulties, but hon. Gentleman the Member for Green- had made the fullest allowance for them, wich (Mr. Gladstone) had said that this and had, at the same time, attempted to fall in silver was not the main difficulty remedy them. It was a gratification to to be contended with, the right hon. know that in the anxious and important Gentleman the Member for the Univer- crisis of affairs in India, the decision of sity of London (Mr. Lowe) thought that the Government to make no change in immediate steps should be taken to the currency was supported by the opiremedy it. The hon. Member for Bolton nion of that House. It appeared to (Mr. J. K. Cross) had said that the Go-him that the increase of the Home vernment exaggerated their loss by exchange, inasmuch as they took no acVOL. CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

charges was the greatest difficulty in their financial arrangements; and he [Third Night.]

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