the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill, | tion relates in particular to the expenses and any other Business there may be.

EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS.

PETITIONS PRESENTED.

of the Afghan War, and to the repeal of the duty on certain descriptions of cotton goods. The prayer is that the House will direct that India be relieved from any further share in the payment of the cost of the Afghan War; and that the House will also condemn the Order of the Government of India exempting certain cotton goods from payment of import duty. The Petition consists of very careful and, I think, able reasoning, or series of statements, in support of those propositions.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

MR. JOHN BRIGHT: I have to present to the House a series of Petitions, signed entirely, I believe, by Natives of India. The Petitions are some six in number. One is from Native inhabitants of Ahmedabad, in the Presidency of Bombay; one is from the Punjab; one from the North-West Provinces and Oude; one from the Province of Assam ; one from Central India; and one from the Province of Bengal. I am assured that the signatures amount in all to 10,000. The Petitions are alike in statement and in prayer. They bring before INDIA the House the fact that many promises have been made to the Natives of India that they should be accepted, not into the ordinary, but into the covenanted Service; and they say that these promises have been almost altogether unfulfilled. Without going into detail I will, with the permission of the House, conclude by reading the prayer. It is--

"That the maximum limit of age for admission to the open competition examination for the Civil Service of India be raised to 22 years"

11606

EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT. COMMITTEE.

ADJOURNED DEBATE. [THIRD NIGHT.]

Debate on Question [22nd May], "That Order read, for resuming Adjourned Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair" (for Committee upon East India Revenue Accounts).

Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

MR. J. K. CROSS said, it might,

-for reasons that are stated in the perhaps, be convenient to the House to

Petition.

prayer

And, further, says the

"That the open competition examination for the Civil Service of India be held simultaneously

with that in London, in some centre or centres

in India where a definite proportion of appointments, such as may be determined upon by your honourable House, may be competed for year after year."

The Petition gives strong, and I should say abundant, reasons for the fairness of the proposition which the Petitioners make to the House. I shall be glad to move, if I am in Order, that one of the Petitions be printed with the Votes.

MR. SPEAKER: According to the ordinary course, when a Petition is referred to the Select Committee on Petitions, it rests with them to determine whether it should be printed.

MR. GLADSTONE: I have to present a Petition, signed by British-born and Indian subjects residing in Calcutta and in the neighbourhood of Calcutta, similar to one presented by me some time ago from another quarter. This Peti

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

direct their attention to the point at which this debate had arrrived when it was adjourned a fortnight ago; and he would do so, because it would be within the recollection of many hon. Gentlemen that they had not been present since the Under Secretary of State for India had made his very able Statement, and, therefore, they probably had not followed the course of the debate. Most of the speeches made had been addressed rather to general Indian questions than to protests against, or criticisms upon, the speech of the Under Secretary; indeed, with the exception of protests against the remission of the cotton duties by the hon. Members for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett, Plymouth (Mr.Sampson Lloyd), and Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), and against the great reduction in Public Works expenditure by the hon. Members for Hackney and Kirkcaldy, there had been a somewhat dangerous agreement in favour of the Government proposals. Why his hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy should, in denouncing the

Government for their action on the | sion that he had laid before the House cotton duties, have turned the battery by far the gravest official Statement as of his indignation upon him (Mr. J. K. to Indian Finance that had been put Cross) he could not conceive, unless it before Parliament since the Government was that he happened to be the one of India had been transferred from the Liberal Member present. Really, he Company to the Crown; and so great assured him that he was not answerable was the contrast between his speech and for the Government's action in this mat- those which had so often been heard ter, and he dared say that they would from his Predecessors, that they might not care that he should say a word in be excused for believing either that on their defence; but, really, his hon. that occasion the hon. Gentleman had Friends, who were so anxious that India painted far too gloomy a financial landshould be lightly taxed, must be aware scape for their contemplation, or that his that those who would be the gainers by Predecessor had been in an equal degree that remission were the poorest of the too sanguine. But now, having that people in India; for it was they who grave statement before them, they might bought the common goods, on which the accept it as an official notice that we duties were remitted; and he could not were no longer to look upon Indian understand how they could be aggrieved finance through the glamour of Eastern by having the few square yards of com- romance. We had dismissed fiction, and mon shirting on which their respect- taken fact into our service. He would ability somewhat depended at a lower examine the teaching of fact respecting price than formerly. Another point of the Accounts of the year 1877-8. At great interest raised in the debate was paragraph 32 of the East India Finance the question of exchange, which the hon. Accounts for 1877-8 he found what was Member for Plymouth would rectify by called the true result, which was as universal bi-metallism, and which his follows:hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge (Mr. Sidebottom) would remedy by a bi-metallic currency, failing which he thought the Loan Bill the next best way of rehabilitating silver-a monstrous long word, which meant, so far as India was concerned, screwing up the price of the rupee. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe) would regenerate India by giving her a paper standard of value based upon an ideal redemption in gold -a redemption seemingly, at least, as ideal as anything that ever perplexed the brain of the most bewildered student of metaphysics, and which would require a fuller revelation than that vouchsafed by the right hon. Gentleman before they could accept it. So far as he understood his proposition, it seemed to be ably answered by the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council (Lord George Hamilton), who also clearly pointed out that the nominal loss on exchange greatly exceeded the real loss, which could not be estimated at more than £2,750,000 sterling. The Under Secretary of State had begun his eloquent and exceedingly able speech so pleasantly, that it was a long time before they discovered how grave was the statement he was making; but before he had finished, they had certainly come to the conclu

"The whole true excess Expenditure of the year becomes £9,266,179, or, more correctly, 9,26,61,790 rupees, which is the measure of the increase of the Public Debt during the year." At paragraph 33, we have the following:

"Of this large sum, £4,968, 123 is due to the

construction of Productive Public Works, in pursuance of the policy deliberately adopted. The Famine affected the Accounts of 1877-8 adversely by £6,500,000. If this Estimate is correct, it follows that, but for the Famine, the Revenue Accounts of 1877-8 would have shown a surplus of about £2,201,944. Provided that the works upon which the excluded £4,968,123 was spent could be trusted to be truly reproductive, this result might be regarded as very satisfactory."

But at the foot of the page there appeared an explanatory paragraph, stating that the Public Works productive expenditure included £177,071 for loss of exchange. That could no more be reckoned as profit or invested capital, than a London merchant, having made a bad debt of £177,071, could add it to his stock at the end of the year as part of his capital. At paragraph 37, they had what was called the "final conclusion," which ran thus

"This, then, is the out-turn of the finances of 1877-8. If the Famine, costing £6,500,000, and the expenditure on productive Public Works, amounting to £4,968,123, be eliminated, [Third Night.]

the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill, | tion relates in particular to the expenses and any other Business there may be.

EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS.

PETITIONS PRESENTED.

of the Afghan War, and to the repeal of the duty on certain descriptions of cotton goods. The prayer is that the House will direct that India be relieved from any further share in the payment of the cost of the Afghan War; and that the House will also condemn the Order of the Government of India exempting certain cotton goods from payment of import duty. The Petition consists of very careful and, I think, able reasoning. or series of statements, in support of those propositions.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

MR. JOHN BRIGHT: I have to present to the House a series of Petitions, signed entirely, I believe, by Natives of India. The Petitions are some six in number. One is from Native inhabitants of Ahmedabad, in the Presidency of Bombay; one is from the Punjab; one from the North-West Provinces and Oude; one from the Province of Assam ; one from Central India; and one from the Province of Bengal. I am assured that the signatures amount in all to 10,000. The Petitions are alike in statement and in prayer. They bring before INDIA the House the fact that many promises have been made to the Natives of India that they should be accepted, not into the ordinary, but into the covenanted Service; and they say that these promises have been almost altogether unfulfilled. Without going into detail I will, with the permission of the House, conclude by reading the prayer. It is

EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.-COMMITTEE.

ADJOURNED DEBATE. [THIRD NIGHT.]

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [22nd May]. "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair" (for Committee upon East India Revenue Accounts).

Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

"That the maximum limit of age for admission to the open competition examination for the Civil Service of India be raised to 22 years" -for reasons that are stated in the perhaps, be convenient to the House to

Petition.

prayer

And, further, says the

"That the open competition examination for the Civil Service of India be held simultaneously

with that in London, in some centre or centres

in India where a definite proportion of appointments, such as may be determined upon by your honourable House, may be competed for year after year."

The Petition gives strong, and I should say abundant, reasons for the fairness of the proposition which the Petitioners make to the House. I shall be glad to move, if I am in Order, that one of the Petitions be printed with the Votes.

MR. SPEAKER: According to the ordinary course, when a Petition is referred to the Select Committee on Petitions, it rests with them to determine whether it should be printed.

MR. GLADSTONE: I have to present a Petition, signed by British-born and Indian subjects residing in Calcutta and in the neighbourhood of Calcutta, similar to one presented by me some time ago from another quarter. This Peti

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

MR. J. K. CROSS said, it might,

direct their attention to the point at which this debate had arrrived when it was adjourned a fortnight ago; and he would do so, because it would be within the recollection of many hon. Gentlemen that they had not been present since the Under Secretary of State for India had made his very able Statement, and, ther fore, they probably had not followed the course of the debate. Most of the speeches made had been addressed rather to general Indian questions than to protests against, or criticisms upon, the speech of the Under Secretary; indeed, with the exception of protests against the remission of the cotton duties by the hon. Members for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett, Plymouth (Mr.Sampson Lloyd), and Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), and against the great reduction in Public Works expenditure by the hon. Members for Hackney and Kirkcaldy, there had been a somewhat dangerous agreement in favour of the Government proposals. Why his hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy should, in denouncing the

Government for their action on the | sion that he had laid before the House cotton duties. have turned the battery by far the gravest official Statement as of his indignation upon him (Mr. J. K. to Indian Finance that had been put Cross) he could not conceive, unless it before Parliament since the Government was that he happened to be the one of India had been transferred from the Liberal Member present. Really, he Company to the Crown; and so great assured him that he was not answerable was the contrast between his speech and for the Government's action in this mat- those which had so often been heard ter, and he dared say that they would from his Predecessors, that they might not care that he should say a word in be excused for believing either that on their defence; but, really, his hon. that occasion the hon. Gentleman had Friends, who were so anxious that India painted far too gloomy a financial landshould be lightly taxed, must be aware scape for their contemplation, or that his that those who would be the gainers by Predecessor had been in an equal degree that remission were the poorest of the too sanguine. But now, having that people in India; for it was they who grave statement before them, they might bought the common goods, on which the accept it as an official notice that we duties were remitted; and he could not were no longer to look upon Indian understand how they could be aggrieved finance through the glamour of Eastern by having the few square yards of com- romance. We had dismissed fiction, and mon shirting on which their respect- taken fact into our service. He would ability somewhat depended at a lower examine the teaching of fact respecting price than formerly. Another point of the Accounts of the year 1877-8. At great interest raised in the debate was paragraph 32 of the East India Finance the question of exchange, which the hon. Accounts for 1877-8 he found what was Member for Plymouth would rectify by called the true result, which was as universal bi-metallism, and which his follows::hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge (Mr. Sidebottom) would remedy by a bi-metallic currency, failing which he thought the Loan Bill the next best way of rehabilitating silver-a monstrous long word, which meant, so far as India was concerned, screwing up the price of the rupee. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Lon-construction of Productive Public Works, in pursuance of the policy deliberately adopted. don (Mr. Lowe) would regenerate India The Famine affected the Accounts of 1877-8 by giving her a paper standard of value adversely by £6,500,000. If this Estimate is based upon an ideal redemption in gold correct, it follows that, but for the Famine, -a redemption seemingly, at least, as ideal as anything that ever perplexed the brain of the most bewildered student of metaphysics, and which would require a fuller revelation than that vouchsafed by the right hon. Gentleman before they could accept it. So far as he understood his proposition, it seemed to be ably answered by the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council (Lord George Hamilton), who also clearly pointed out that the nominal loss on exchange greatly exceeded the real loss, which could not be estimated at more than £2,750,000 sterling. The Under Secretary of State had begun his eloquent and exceedingly able speech so pleasantly, that it was a long time before they discovered how grave was the statement he was making; but before he had finished, they had certainly come to the conclu

"The whole true excess Expenditure of the year becomes £9,266,179, or, more correctly, 9,26,61,790 rupees, which is the measure of the increase of the Public Debt during the year." At paragraph 33, we have the following :

"Of this large sum, £4,968,123 is due to the

the Revenue Accounts of 1877-8 would have shown a surplus of about £2,201,944. Provided that the works upon which the excluded £4,968,123 was spent could be trusted to be truly reproductive, this result might be regarded as very satisfactory."

But at the foot of the page there appeared an explanatory paragraph, stating that the Public Works productive expenditure included £177,071 for loss of exchange. That could no more be reckoned as profit or invested capital, than a London merchant, having made a bad debt of £177,071, could add it to his stock at the end of the year as part of his capital. At paragraph 37, they had what was called the "final conclusion," which ran thus

"This, then, is the out-turn of the finances of 1877-8. If the Famine, costing £6,500,000,

and the expenditure on productive Public Works, amounting to £4,968,123, be eliminated, [Third Night.]