of the amount of the Vote in precisely the same channels as before, and in the same way. It might happen that the Queen's Colleges might not apply for anything this year, or for less, whilst double the usual amount might be wanted in some other direction; but, on the whole, in a rough way, in order to satisfy the Committee, the Government took what they had expended in the different Departments before, to show that a similar amount would be required again. He noticed that £11,500 was put down for printing for borough and county prisons; and having regard to the recent taking over of the prisons, he wished to know on what that Estimate was based? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he believed it was a fair and ample Estimate; but, with the short experience they had had of the new system, he could not speak with certainty as to its accuracy. MR. J. COWEN wished to call attention to a point of some importance, affecting the officials of this Department, and that was the very great change which had recently taken place in the character of the paper on which their publications were printed. Formerly, the paper was chiefly composed of rags, and showed greater tenacity; but during the last few years, the paper had been made of various fibrous materials, such as wood-fibre, straw, and Esparto grass. In some cases, the paper was composed of two-thirds fibre, and onethird rags, and the consequence was that, in a few years, it became spotted, the ink gathered into places, and a good deal of the printing became unreadable. Any publication that had to be preserved must be printed on good paper. It would be well if the authorities were aware of that fact, and if the quality of the official paper were of a little better description. It had been recently found that a large mass of papers in the Government Offices at Washington had become totally useless from the poor quality of the material, and the Government had had to go to great expense in re-printing some of them. He did not know that the world would be much the worse if many of our official papers were not preserved; but he commended the subject to the attention of the Stationery Office. MAJOR NOLAN gave credit to the Treasury for putting forward the very best Estimate they could obtain; but there was another point of greater importance than the accuracy of the Estimate. The hon. Gentleman the Secrętary to the Treasury had told the Committee that none of the money could be expended on Queen's Colleges, until they had decided that there should be Queen's Colleges at all in Ireland. Now, if he had a hope of beating the Government on that question, he should think it would be better to wait; but, at present, he had no such hope. Then came the question whether the Irish Members, who were admittedly in the minority, should wait for one big Vote, and then have done with it, or whether it would not be better for them to divide every time they had a fair opportunity. Now, the present seemed to him to be an excellent tunity of showing their dislike, not to the Queen's Colleges, but to the system which made them the only Collegiate institutions open to the people of Ireland, and did not give them the chance of having. Colleges such as they wished. He was sorry so few Irishmen were present; but he thought it would, perhaps, be better to divide. oppor MR. J. W. BARCLAY advised the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Nolan) not to go to a Division, as the Queen's Colleges would get the Vote, notwithstanding any such action he might take. ŠIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he had made a note of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen) with regard to the quality of the paper. He believed that under the new contract the paper was supplied at a fixed rate, which was rather above the market price; and, therefore, he hoped it would be of such a quality as to meet the objection of his hon. Friend. He could assure the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) that should the House sanction any other College in Ireland, the Stationery Department would supply their needs out of the Vote. Whatever Department the House sanctioned would come out of this Vote; but the House had to sanction beforehand that the Queen's Colleges should be continued, before those Colleges would get anything from the Stationery Office. MR. RAMSAY believed the Committee now thoroughly understood the meaning of the hon. Gentleman's remarks, and did not see how the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) would profit by a Division. He (Mr. Ramsay) objected to the manner in which the details of the Vote were given. The details of the past year were available; but the House did not possess the details for the year 1879-80. MR. HIBBERT asked whether the amount of the Vote might not be reduced by the printing of the Department being performed in prisons, under the Government control? When the gaol at Gloucester was under the control of the county-before its transfer to the Government-the whole of the official printing for the county was very successfully performed by the prisoners in that establishment, and he saw no reason why that should not be done for all the prisons throughout the country. SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN thought it was not an inopportune moment to call attention to an item in the Vote with reference to the Foreign Office. During the last year or two Papers of great interest and importance had been furnished by the Foreign Office to the Press, and to other persons, before they reached the hands of hon. Members of the House, who certainly might expect to receive the earliest information from the Government. There might be a reason to give an explanation; but he thought some explanation was required why hon. Members were not furnished with the documents at the time they were entitled to them-namely, at the earliest possible opportunity. so, and that Members were put in an inferior position, he should feel the justice of the complaint. But, under present circumstances, if a public document were put into his hands in the morning, and he found that The Times and Telegraph, The Standard and Daily News, had it as well, he did not feel that he suffered any injury. As one formerly connected with journalism, he said the relations between the Foreign Office and the Press were useful for public information; and he hoped as long as the present Under Secretary of State was connected with that Department, he would continue to recognize those relations as being of great public service. SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN said, he did not at first move to reduce this Vote, because he merely wanted to have some information. What he complained of was, that during the Eastern Question he did not receive Papers until three or four days after he read of them in the morning papers. That was a state of things which he did not think should continue; and, therefore, in order to elicit some information from the Government, he proposed to reduce the | Vote by the sum of £5,000. THE CHAIRMAN observed, that the Amendment now before the House must first be disposed of. MR. SHAW thought he and his hon. Friends would not make a very creditable exhibition if they went to a Division, because there were so few of them present. He was never opposed to asserting a principle, even in the Division Lobby; but he thought there were reasons on the present occasion why such a step was unnecessary. The Leader of the House had acted very fairly towards his hon. Friend (the O'Conor Don), who had to introduce a Bill of great import MR. SULLIVAN supposed the hon. Baronet the Member for King's County (Sir Patrick O'Brien) did not refer to the surreptitious obtaining of public documents; but he must say he did not agree with the hon. Baronet in his esti-ance--the University Bill-and had promate of the relations which ought to exist, and did exist, between the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the public Press. He appealed to the Committee to say that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State, in affording reasonable facilities to the Press, had conducted those relations with great tact and judgment, and with public usefulness. The documents to which reference was made were not published pre-pressing this matter to a Division. viously to their delivery to Members, but simultaneously; and if the hon. Baronet could show that that was not Mr. Ramsay mised to give him facilities for introducing that measure, if he could not otherwise bring it forward; and he himself was not without hope that the Government, when they heard those propositions, would themselves adopt the measure, and pass it through the House. Under such circumstances, he thought his hon. and gallant Friend (Major Nolan) would be acting wisely in not MAJOR NOLAN remarked, that he did not expect to get much support in the Lobby that night; but he thought it would pave the way to a better divi- | That was the rule, and he thought if sion on the Report at a later time. But the hon. Baronet would make further as his hon. Friend the Member for Cork inquiries he would find that that rule (Mr. Shaw) had stated some very excel- was adhered to. lent reasons for allowing the Vote to pass on the present occasion, he would withdraw his opposition, although his own desire would be simply and quietly to divide on every occasion that this Vote was proposed. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £372,088, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for Stationery, Printing, and Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for the several Departments of Government in England, Scotland, and Ireland, and some Dependencies, and for the two Houses of Parliament, and for the Salaries and Expenses of the Establishment of the Stationery Office, and the cost of Stationery Office Publications, and of the Gazette Offices; and for sundry Miscellaneous Services, including a Grant in Aid of the publication of Parliamentary Debates." -(Sir Patrick O'Brien.) MR. BOURKE regretted that he was not in the House when the hon. Baronet first spoke; but he gathered, from what he had been told, that the hon. Baronet complained that Papers from the Foreign Office were given to members of the Press before they were distributed to Members of the House. He could only reply that he knew of no case where such a thing had occurred. On the contrary, he took the greatest care that no Papers of any kind should be communicated from the Foreign Office to the Press before they had been communicated to Parliament. As the Committee must be well aware, there had been many occasions when the Press had been extremely anxious to obtain copies of Parliamentary documents; but he had invariably refused to publish them, or to give them in any way to the Press, not merely until the Papers had been communicated, but until they had been communicated to Members. Supposing the case, for instance, of a Paper printed that night, which would be in the hands of Members to-morrow morning, he had not even then communicated it to the Press, until he had made absolutely certain there was no doubt it would be in the hands of Members the next morning. SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN replied, that his complaint had not been fully understood. Speaking for other hon. Members besides himself, he might say that that to which they objected was the fact that they did not receive Papers connected with the Eastern Question till two days after they had appeared in the morning papers. He did not say this was the fault of the Foreign Office; but he did think that they were to blame for the fact that other persons, not Members of either House of Parliament, received these Papers, and knew what they contained, before they were known to the Members of either House. that reason, he ventured to intervene; and though he did not wish to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division, he could not at all admit the accuracy of the statement of the hon. Gentleman as to the practice of his Office. For SIR ALEXANDER GORDON found great delay in communicating the despatches published in The Gazette. There were some from the Cape published in March, which had not yet been sent to hon. Members, and, as a consequence, those of them who wished to follow the progress of the war, for instance, in South Africa, had great difficulty in doing so. He would, therefore, make the suggestion to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, as he had already suggested to the Secretary of State for War, that the Supplement to The London Gazette, which was always published as a separate paper, should be laid on the Table of the House pro formâ on the evening of publication, and then the Supplement could be circulated from the Vote Office. By that means, every Member would have an official copy of these important and interesting despatches in his possession, could follow the steps of the war, and could be ready at any time to take up the topic, instead of receiving these Papers once a month in a Blue Book, when they could be of no possible use. These Gazettes would cost nothing, excepting the paper, for the type was already set up, and the shape of The Gazette made them quite suitable for delivery to Members. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON promised to consider the question, al though the matter did not arise within, | the Department would certainly prove and was not connected with, his Depart- a great friend to the Treasury. He ment. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR earnestly hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would continue to provide for The Army and Navy Lists being published under authority, and that these Lists would be kept better filled with information about the Naval and Military Services. He approved very highly of the excellent table in connection with the cost of stationery and printing done for the various branches of the Civil and Military Services. It was the best mode they had of keeping the expenditure of the Departments under control; and though it was clumsily prepared, and did not arrange the items under the heads in which they appeared in the Estimates, still it did enable hon. Members to compare the sums spent with the sums voted, and he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would continue to give the matter his attention. So far from discontinuing the list, the Secretary to the Treasury would do good service by endeavouring to make it approach more nearly to perfection by separating the cost of stationery from that of printing, and by an improved arrangement of the figures to connect the amounts with those in the audited accounts. He hoped in future the table would be published in the Appropriation Account, and they would then be able to compare the items in detail with the totals now shown in lump sums. He also asked why The Army List did not appear among the allowances hitherto given for compilation? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he could not explain the matter at that moment; but he would do so on the Report. With regard to the table, he was not very much encouraged to give it by the reception he had met with in that respect hitherto; but he certainly did not intend to discontinue it. thoroughly approved of the present management of the prisons; but he should like to know whether the Stationery Department had charge of the printing in the prisons, or whether that expenditure was now conducted by and included in the cost of that Department? Another matter to which he wished to call attention was the management of The London Gazette. It appeared at the present time to be yielding a considerable profit to the Treasury; but he believed it would be extremely advantageous if the price of that publication were considerably reduced and the circulation largely increased. One portion of the paper which conduced largely to the profit was the advertisements; and, of course, the more extensively the paper was circulated the greater would be the income for advertisements, and the greater the profit, like all other undertakings of a similar kind, from the sale. In addition, as suggested by his hon. and gallant Friend, they would have the benefit that the public announcements in The Gazette would be more widely circulated and more easily got at by those who were interested in them. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON promised that attention should be given to these suggestions; but, at the same time, begged to point out that there was at the present time a very considerable profit from the advertisements in The Gazette, amounting last year to £31,214, which was certainly a considerable sum. MR. J. W. BARCLAY hoped something would also be done to reduce the price of the advertisements in The Gazette, which, at the present time, was a very serious tax on the mercantile community, who were obliged to put certain advertisements in the paper. SIR ANDREW LUSK thought a more reasonable price ought certainly to be asked for these advertisements. He found under letter J. that printing, binding, &c. had fallen off by £15,000. He al-wished to know the reason for that? Paper, also, cost £92,000. Was that bought by contract, or was it ordered from some person as a matter of course? He hoped they did not pay very much for the paper in the Library, for it was not very grand, and the pens were very bad, and the ink was something abominable. It stuck, and would not write. MR. WHITWELL pointed out that though there was a Supplemental Vote in the spring, and although the changes at the Post Office had relieved that Department to some extent, yet there was again an increase in the charges of £4,000. He was quite sure his hon. Friend (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) would pay particular attention to this subject, and Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON | the lawns and grass, leaving only a very replied, that the paper was bought by small sum for the rest of the 1,400 acres. contract. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE pointed out that, so far from there being any revenue from the Park, there was a deficit. Undoubtedly, any change that was made must be made by legislation, and that was why he and his Friends had not sought to call attention to the matter by Divisions; but he would urge the Government to consider whether such legislation ought not to take place. In this case they knew nothing of the expenditure. They only knew that every year there was an extraordinary deficit on Windsor Forest, which they were called upon to vote, without knowing at all how it was made up or why it arose. Vote agreed to. MR. J. W. BARCLAY asked if the contract extended over several years? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, these details did not belong to his particular Department, and he could not give the actual details of that particular contract; but there was a saving under the contract, as made by the Stationery Office, and, comparing the work done in previous years and the prices then paid with the present Estimate, there was a saving of several thousands of pounds. SIR ANDREW LUSK repeated his question as to the decrease in the Vote under the letter J. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON supposed that it arose from the fact that there had been less printing required in this year, as compared with last, for the prices paid for the work were the same, although the contract was now under consideration. Original Question put, and agreed to. (7.) £19,386, to complete the sum for the Woods, Forests, &c. Office. MR. RYLANDS said, some observations were made on this Vote about the management of Windsor Park, when it was previously before the Committee, and he now wished to ask whether the remarks then made had received consideration? Windsor Park ought certainly to be brought under public management as the far more economical way. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON replied, that he could only repeat what he said on the former occasion, that any alteration in the manner of managing the Park must be made by legislation. At the time when the Civil List was agreed to, this particular park was placed among the appanages of the Crown, on the condition that the revenue after the expenses had been paid should go into the Exchequer. He might remind the Committee that a great part of the expenditure on the Park was for the benefit of the public, who derived great enjoyment from its use. The real amount spent, after deducting what the maintenance of the roads, the lodges, &c., cost, was really nothing considerable. Something like £11,000 was paid for the maintenance of the roads and lodges, and £5,000 for (8.) £33,684, to complete the sum for the Works and Public Buildings Office. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR called attention to the large increase which had taken place within the past two years in the Vote for the Office of the Chief Commissioner of Works. Of course, the charges for an Establishment of this kind might be expected to vary; but they had already swelled up to an extent far beyond what appeared to be requisite for the additional work known to have been imposed on the Department. He again had to make complaints of the confused way in which these accounts were presented to Parliament, and now they found an increase of nearly 25 per cent in one small Department, which, remembering the dissatisfaction already existing in the minds of many hon. Members, could not be expected to pass without notice. The expenditure ought to be put more clearly before the Committee, so that they could understand the reason for these increases without running into mistakes. MR. GERARD NOEL explained that during the last few years several new Departments had been thrown on the Office of Works, such as the Inland Revenue, the Embassy and Consular Buildings abroad, and the Customs Departments. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR was at a loss to understand how that could increase the expenses in the Office to anything in the actual proportion that had taken place. A controlling Office like this ought to be able to take |