he (Earl Granville) had stated, must be | with vested interest on behalf of life, considered as the opinion of the Office property, and the public health of the on the abstract merits of the question. Metropolis were clearly as justifiable as But if the noble Earl urged delay, he those for improving the railway commu(Earl Granville) could only say there nications of the country. In both cases was every possible objection to it. If, there must be no confiscation. There as was the opinion of the Committee, must, on the contrary, be liberal comthe London system entailed three times pensation. The difficulty of coming to greater sacrifice of life and property than an agreement ought to be much dimithose systems where unity prevailed, nished-first, by the fact that the sharethe necessity for immediate action was holders did not now profit at all in prooverwhelming. Besides, every year's portion to the increasing rates to which delay added enormously to the pecu- the consumers of water were subject; niary difficulty of an arrangement with and, second, that Parliament had in the vested interests of the Companies. numerous instances settled the prin Every year would add something like ciples on which such compensation £1,750,000 to the sum which had to be should be given-namely, 25 years' paid. It was out of the question that purchase of the highest net dividend, the Vestries, who had nothing to do with an allowance for compulsory pur with the police, who had no special chase; and also, on arbitration, an knowledge on the matter, or skilled allowance for prospective advantages. officers to advise them, and who were If his noble Relative, in his answer, generally engaged in business affairs, threw more or less cold water upon him, should have the task of settling the such as was supplied now by some of terms and mode of purchasing the means the London Companies; if he declined, of supplying water to the Metropolis. on the part of the Home Office, to take The noble Duke the Lord President of the any initiative on such a pressing and Council (the Duke of Richmond and urgent question-he must appeal te Gordon) and his Commission reported Cæsar-to the noble Earl at the head of thatHer Majesty's Government (the Earl of Beaconsfield); but he was afraid that Cæsar had just left the House. many years ago, the noble Earl publicly begged the civil engineers to direct their attention to the improvement of the public health, and he suggested as a subject most worthy of their consideration the supply of water to London. He was told the noble Earl also encouraged Colonel Beresford to propose a Bill for the purpose even before the Select Committee had sat, and he knew that it was a proud boast of the noble Earl at the commencement of his Administration that the public health would be the principal care of his Government. He did not think there could be a better way of redeeming such a pledge than by carrying out the recommendations of the Committee, which dealt with a matter of great urgency as regarded life, property, and public health. In conclusion, the noble Earl moved for the production of Papers relating to the subject. "Such technical details could only be carried out by competent professional skill, and that this must be carefully determined under the guidance of the experience gained in the process of the change." The Metropolitan Board failed to treat with the Water Companies, who declined to negotiate with them, and had twice been discouraged by the Government from doing so. The privileges and powers of the Companies had been confirmed under the sanction of the Government. They were exercised under the supervision of Government Departments and Government officers, of a Government Auditor, and a Government Surveyor, formerly under the Board of Trade, now under the Local Government Board. It was the practice of the Government to give its assistance in this matter. To take one instance, there was the Commission for the consolidation of roads of upwards of 100 parishes, under a Royal Commission or Road Trust, which worked remarkably well. He doubted whether there would be any insuperable difficulties in coming to a speedy arrangement with the Water Companies. Compulsory powers to deal Earl Granville Not Moved, "That an humble Address be presented Society of Arts and the Secretary of State for to Her Majesty for Correspondence between the Supply of the Metropolis."—(The Earl Gran the Home Department respecting the Water ville.) EARL BEAUCHAMP said, there was no doubt, as the noble Earl (Earl Granville) had said, that the Prime Minister had always taken a great interest in questions relating to the public health, and he was duly impressed with the importance of the question now before their Lordships. It was impossible, however, to promise immediate redress of the grievances which the noble Earl had set forth in his speech. It was true the Committee to which the noble Earl had called attention was presided over by Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson; but when propositions which appeared most desirable in the abstract came to be put into operation, other considerations had to be taken into account. The management of the administration of fires was a question full of difficulty. Since the Fire Brigade was constituted and placed under the control of the Metropolitan Board of Works, the statistics showed the progress it had made. In 1866 there were 1,338 fires, and in 1875 there were 1,529; but in 1866, out of the 1,338 fires, 326 were of a serious character, and 1,012 were slight. That was the state of matters before the Metropolitan Board of Works took charge. In 1875, out of 1,529, 163 were fires of a serious character, and 1,366 were slight. It would, therefore, be seen that in the 10 years the proportion of serious fires had fallen from 25 per cent to 11 per cent, showing that a more efficient system had been brought into operation, by which fires were sooner detected and their mischief more thoroughly mitigated; and there was no reason to suppose that the progress made in those years had come to a conclusion. When it was asked that the Fire Brigade should be placed under the police, it must be remembered that there were two police forces in the Metropolis-that under the City of London, and that under the Secretary of State. The City of London had always been jealous of interference with its police, and the time had not been arrived at for subordinating their police to the Secretary of State. Unless, therefore, it could be shown that the present arrangement was incompatible with the public welfare, the City of London police should not be lightly interfered with. It had also been recommended that a second body should be created, and subordinated to the Commissioner of Police. It must be VOL, CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.] evident that if it was possible for the police to afford greater facilities than they did at the present time, they must have a separate organization and separate training for those who were really to cope with difficulties arising at fires. But he did not see what advantage was to be gained from this recommendation. The amalgamation of the Water Companies was a very large question. It had been certainly estimated that the sum of £20,000,000 would be required to buy up the rights of the Companies. That made the money question a very serious one. He might remind the noble Earl that besides the great question of capital, the Committee had recommended that there should be a constant supply throughout the day, and that, it had been estimated, would cost not less than £250,000. No doubt it was possible to frame a measure which would satisfy the Companies; but whether a measure which would satisfy the Companies would satisfy the Metropolis was a different question. The progress of Business in the House of Commons during the last two or three years had not been such as to make it very desirable to introduce measures without a reasonable prospect of carrying them, and he was sure that such a measure as this would undergo a severe and searching examination. But that was not a matter which should deter the Government from dealing with the question. No doubt, when the time arrived for dealing with the subject, the Report of the Committee, to which reference had been made, would form the basis of legislation; but the question was one of such a grave and important character, that it would be rash for the Government to take it up unless they saw their way to carry it to a successful and a speedy conclusion. No one could be more sensible than himself (Earl Beauchamp) of the terrible consequences that would follow a conflagration in the densely-populated districts of the Metropolis where so much wealth was stored, and he freely admitted that the noble Earl, with whose loss he fully sympathized, had done good service in bringing the subject before the House. LORD ABERDARE said, that the noble Earl on his side of the House (Earl Granville) could not be congratulated on the effect of his speech, as it had failed to obtain from the Government any dis 2 Q high authority that they could not make satisfactory arrangements for the extinction of fire if they had not a constant water supply at their command. He regretted, however, to say that the Government had taken no step towards giving effect to there commendations contained in the Report. The Metropolis and its suburbs contained a population exceeding that of Scotland, and yet they were behind one of the chief cities of Scotland as regarded the means of extinguishing fire. LORD DENMAN said, that it was unfair in noble Lords to complain of the Government for not promising legis when those who complained were continually striving to expel them from office. The Government did not promise, but had often carried measures which their opponents had failed to make practical. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) had alluded to the importance of an early extinction of fires. He (Lord Denman) wished that in every house there were a small portable gas or steam apparatus, which at an early stage of a fire might subdue it. He believed that the Government would effectually deal with the important question before their Lordships; but they could not be expected to do so in the present state of Public Business during the present Session. tinct pledge. No one expected that the Government would undertake immediate legislation; but anything more hopeless than the views expressed by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Beauchamp) it was impossible to conceive; and he (Lord Aberdare) very much regretted the noble Earl had not held out some hope of a speedy termination to the state of affairs which had been complained of. The noble Earl could not pretend to say for a moment that by delay they would gain further information. Royal Commissions and Committees of both Houses had more than once insisted that, in order to insure the rapid extinction of fires and a constant supply of pure water to the Metro-lation on this subject at a fixed time, polis, the Water Companies should be amalgamated. The Royal Commission of 1869 laid it down in the clearest way that the control of the water supply of London should be intrusted to a responsible public body. The expediency of uniting the Water Companies under one controlling head was amply demonstrated in the Report of that Commission, various reasons being given for the adoption of the course which was advocated. That course, the Commission stated, could alone effectually insure to the Metropolis a constant supply of water for domestic purposes as well as for the extinction of fires. Again, by its adoption the poor would be provided with proper water. An attempt, he might remind their Lordships, had been made by the late THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY said, Government to secure this advantage that the question now under considerafor the poorer classes, and considerable tion had been before the public for the pressure had been brought to bear upon last 30 years. It was quite time that it the Companies by the Bill of 1871, which was settled. The present water supply had, he was glad to say, resulted in of the Metropolis was perfectly shamesome improvement. The advantage of a ful. There were some districts of Lonconstant water supply was, however, by don in which the houses were of such a no means universally enjoyed by the construction, that if a fire broke out poor. Some of the Companies had it would be like the Great Fire of Lonexerted themselves; but there remained don in the extent of its devastation. He one which had done nothing at all, and spoke feelingly on this subject, having, two which had done very little. The more than 30 years ago, been Chairman Commission to which he had referred of the Board of Health which proposed also enumerated among the advantages a scheme for the remedying of the evil. of the system which they proposed for That it was an efficient remedy was adoption that it would result in uni- proved by the fact that the Water Comformity of management, and in improve-panies rose as one man against it. One ment in the quality of the water supplied. It would, he thought, be allowed that the places in which a fire would be most likely to spread were just those where it would be most difficult to procure an adequate supply of water under the existing system. They had it on Lord Aberdare of the results was that the Board was dissolved with a large amount of contempt, and ceased to exist. The evil, however, went on. Government after Government had had the question before them, but nothing had been done. During the course of his investigations AND in the East of London, at the period to! THE DUKE OF RICHMOND which he referred, he found men drink- GORDON said, that one would think, ing the most detestable beer, and he from a remark of the noble Earl who asked them why they did so? and they had just addressed their Lordships (Earl replied to the effect that the beer was Fortescue), that it was the easiest thing bad, but the water was worse. Bodies in the world to supply the Metropolis. created by Act of Parliament should be with water; but the noble Earl had not taught that there was a body superior to suggested how it was to be done. The them; and he could not too earnestly press Commission over which he had presided upon Her Majesty's Government the ne- was appointed to inquire into the feasi cessity of dealing, and that promptly, with bility of two schemes proposed by Mr. a matter which seriously affected the Bateman and Mr. Hassard, one for morals, the health, and the happiness of bringing water from Wales, and the many thousands of their fellow-subjects. other from Cumberland. The CommisEARL FORTESCUE said, that he, sion sat for a considerable time, took a also, had tasted some of the water sup- great deal of evidence, and spared no plied at the East End of London, and pains in coming to the conclusions which had found it to be very bad. He wished they embodied in their Report. Having to enforce upon Her Majesty's Govern- had an opportunity of reflecting on those ment the urgent importance of taking conclusions, he saw no reason for differthe question into their consideration. ing from them. The matter was one of In the year 1852 the property of the great difficulty, and required careful Water Companies was valued at some- consideration before any practical conthing like £8,000,000 sterling; now, clusion could be arrived at. It had been however, the valuation was £26,000,000. said that, for the sake of the morals, Some of those Companies were extend- health, and cleanliness of the people, ing their works, to supply an increased the Government should at once bring in population, and did so very willingly. a measure to carry out the object deComing events cast their shadows be- sired; but the question was, how were fore," and the Water Companies knew they to meet the difficulties with which that, at no distant day, that which was the question was beset? That was the being done by great city after great city, point on which information was wanted. and even by small town after small It had been suggested that the Water town-namely, the supply by the local Companies should be purchased; but the authority to them of water and gas-question that had to be settled was, how would be done in this great Metropolis. Delay would only make the terms more onerous. The economies, however, of consolidation and the suppression of secretaries, solicitors, and other functionaries of the Companies would be sufficient to pay the interest on the cost of securing an efficient and constant supply of water at high pressure. In Manchester, when an alarm of fire was given, the mains being charged with water at high pressure, the police had nothing to do but to attach hose to a stand-pipe and turn a stream of water on the fire. He ventured to hope that the Government would seriously entertain this question, being assured that there was a large margin for economy and efficiency. We might have water less cold in winter and less warm in summer through being carried further underground, out of the reach of the frost and of the sun; and, with these agreeable and convenient changes, we might have greater security to life and property than at present, were those Companies to be purchased? With a view to these undertakings being bought up, it would be necessary to create a body having the confidence of the ratepayers, because the rates would have to be charged for the cost of such a purchase. The difficulty of the question would, doubtless, be admitted by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Aberdare), who, though he was Home Secretary after the Report of the Commission was made, shrank from taking any large step for the creation of a body to provide water for the whole of the Metropolis. LORD ABERDARE explained that he introduced a Bill, but it was found to be impossible to carry it in the Session. AND THE DUKE OF RICHMOND GORDON said, it was true that the noble Lord did bring in a Bill which proposed to place the matter in the hands of the Metropolitan Board; but he found the mode in which he proposed to deal with the question was not practicable, and the subject so difficult, that he did not attempt to deal with it in any future Session on a scale large enough to meet the requirements of the case. With regard to the police, consisting of City police and Metropolitan police, were these bodies to be united for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the water supply? Again, how could they form the City of London and other parts of the Metropolis into one body, in order to buy up all the Water Companies? These were some of the difficult questions which had to be considered. One of the reasons which induced him to dissent from the proposals of the gentlemen whose schemes were laid before the Commission to which he had referred, was that he did not think it advisable to supply London from one source only. This matter had engaged the constant attention of the Home Secretary (Mr. Assheton Cross), who, regarding it as one of immense importance, would be the first to do something, if he saw his way, to introduce a satisfactory measure, giving an efficient supply of water. The steps which his right hon. Friend had taken in dealing with the Artizans' Dwellings, and other questions of that kind, at all events showed that he was keenly alive to the wants of the poorer classes. It was because his right hon. Friend saw the enormous difficulties which surrounded the question that he did not feel able to bring in a satisfactory measure; but, at the same time, it was a question which was now under his consideration. THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said, the inhabitants of the Metropolis would derive but small consolation from what had been said on behalf of the Government, and more water had been poured down the back of the noble Earl (Earl Granville) than he could get at his house when he wanted it. He (the Earl of Camperdown) admitted that the question was not an easy one to deal with; but Governments had solved greater difficulties than the purchase of the undertakings of a few Water Companies. It was quite as difficult to acquire the Telegraph Companies; but that was successfully achieved. Everyone would admit that this was not a Party question, and that the common object was to get as good, efficient, and cheap water supply as possible for the Metropolis. Of course, it would be necessary to have a central authority which would command the confidence of the ratepayers, and surely the Home The Duke of Richmond and Gordon Secretary was quite competent to create such an authority. Whatever Board of Management might be elected, it would certainly not possess the confidence of the ratepayers in a less degree than did the present Water Companies. The property of the Companies could, of course, only be acquired by means of a compulsory Act. Any voluntary arrangement that might be proposed by the district Boards of the Metropolis would have no effect but to enhance the value of the Companies' shares. There were many reasons why the water supply of the Metropolis should be in the hands of a single body; but it would probably suffice to mention two. These were, first, that the present supply of water was inadequate, and that it would be necessary to supplement it at no distant time-a duty which they would surely never intrust to the present Companies; and, second, that the Companies seemed to have the power of doubling or trebling their rates without conferring any corresponding benefit upon the ratepayers. Four or five years ago, when the present Metropolitan Valuation Act was coming into force, he foresaw that the Companies might raise their charges in consequence of it; but the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) said it was not the intention of the Government to confer upon them any additional rating powers. Nevertheless, legally or illegally, the Companies did raise their charges on that occasion all over the Metropolis, without the slightest benefit resulting to the consumers; and he had received hundreds of letters asking him to do his best to prevent the recurrence of such an anomaly, which Parliament could never have intended to allow. As the present Motion could lead to nothing, he reserved to himself the right of proposing a Resolution on this subject on some future day. Motion agreed to. PARLIAMENT-STANDING ORDERS Nos. 95 AND 96,-OBSERVATIONS. LORD WAVENEY, who had upon the Paper a Notice of Motion "To call attention to the Standing Orders of the House of Lords, and to move Amendments in Nos. 95 and 96," rose for the purpose of addressing the House, when |