would be three Passes which would | 4s. a-week. The Government appeared require protecting, and they were so to underrate the gravity of the situation distant from one another that each with regard to Indian finance, and to would have to rely upon its own over-estimate the amount of the reducstrength. The estimated yearly expense tions that could be made in the expendiof the Forces to be set apart for the ture. There was a fixed annual exdefence of the new territory had been penditure of £17,000,000, in which no put down by Sir Henry Norman, who was reduction could be effected; and under the very highest authority, at £1,000,000. several other heads, 'such as that of The good resolution of the Government "Famine," it was scarcely to be hoped as regarded economy, so essential to the that the expenditure this year would be salvation of the Indian finances, was less than that of last. There was also a badly answered by an extension of the loss to be expected with regard to silver; Frontier, which, beyond the first outlay, although he thought the conduct of would add £1,000,000 a-year to the the Government was wise in refusing to. permanent Expenditure. As to increas- listen to any of the empirical schemes ing taxation, the possibilities of doing so which had been put forward for changing were pretty well exhausted. Indirect the standard. As long as the credit of taxation was admitted to have nearly England stood, it would be easy to reached its limit; and as to direct taxa- raise a succession of loans which they tion, the political danger arising from any would meet until they approached the attempt in that direction was so great, gulf of bankruptcy; and he concluded by and the amount that could be obtained warning the House that these Indian was so small, that all the wisest states- loans would ultimately fall back upon men had abandoned the idea. In justifi- England. cation of that view he would proceed to examine the several sources of Indian Revenue, in order to show that little or no additional income could be derived from them. Two sources had been suggested from which additional revenue might be obtained-tobacco, and an income tax. As to tobacco, the first fatal objection to deriving revenue from it was, that a great part of the population of India was so poor that they could get no more out of them. Another fatal objection was, that being of almost universal growth, if they attempted to raise a revenue from it they must have an army of Native Ex-in the subordinate posts would lead to cisemen going through the country and prosecuting every unfortunate man who grew it. The objections to an income tax he had often stated. They were based chiefly on the Oriental habit of mind, which was so jealous on the subject as to make any such imposition odious to the people. When he was in India, there was a well authenticated instance of a well-to-do man having hung himself, his mind being so much disturbed by having an income tax paper served upon him. After all, if they put on an income tax they would collect very little. The fact that last year the Government had fallen back upon the licensing tax was a proof how hardly they had been driven to find a fresh source of taxation, it being a tax amounting to 5 per cent upon incomes of Mr. Laing MR. SAMPSON LLOYD said, he was certain the House had listened with much satisfaction to the peculiarly clear and lucid statement of the Under Secretary of State for India. He believed every Member of that House was a sincere friend of judicious economy; and he had equally little doubt that that economy would be practised by Her Majesty's Government, when it could be safely carried out, by following the uniform policy indicated in the speech of the Under Secretary of State. He had no doubt that the employment of Natives this, and also have a very beneficial effect on the loyalty of the people. He need not follow the hon. Gentleman in his sugges tions as to economy. No doubt, anyone who had paid attention to Indian finance would find that considerable economy might be made in public buildings in India, and what was called ordinary public works. With regard to the Army, he remembered in a former Session the hon. Baronet the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), whose experience gave his words great weight on questions of this sort, said that as regarded men very little reduction was consistent with the safety of India, and with regard to the officers no reduction need go very far. He submitted that in order to realize any great scheme of economy of the Indian Army, the House (MAY 22, 1879} Revenue Accounts. 1090 must deal with the standing Armies of with the object of disentangling the the great feudatory Princes. So long as different elements of this discussion, those Armies were maintained, number- which it appears to me have no natural ing many tens of thousands of men, and large numbers of artillery, it and the conjunction of which, on the prewas very difficult, indeed, to effect any sent occasion, may rather tend to peror proper connection with one another, measure of economy in the Army of plex the public mind. The discussion India which would bridge over, to any upon the India Budget, although it is extent, the deficit. As regarded public generally limited to a certain number of works, he quite agreed, from what little hon. Members in this House, yet necesattention he had paid to the subject in sarily, and upon all occasions, involves the present circumstances of India, that many topics of great interest and imthey had no choice but to take the ex-portance. penditure on public works. In dealing it is obvious that those topics are with these financial difficulties, there unusually numerous On the present occasion were two ways of meeting them-one weighty; and 1 do not think, nor do I was, by economy, to lessen the burdens expect or desire, that this discussion and unusually on the ratepayer; and the other was by should be terminated at the point which benefiting the condition of the ratepayer it has now reached. But a very great and enabling him to bear greater bur- change has taken place in the position of dens. He could not help thinking that the House in relation to the question something might be done by the Government in that way. With regard to We have had upon the Books for some the question of manufactures, he thought days a Notice of Motion given by my now before it since the debate began. that the people of India might, to a con- hon. Friend the Member for Hackney siderable extent, manufacture for them- (Mr. Fawcett), which appeared to raise selves. If India were governed by Na- a contentious issue; and I, for my own tive Princes, or by any other Power than part, came down to the House at 5 England, he could not help thinking o'clock to-day prepared to give strong that means would be taken to foster, to support, to the best of my ability, to the some extent, at all events, the system of Motion of my hon. Friend. I was enNative manufactures; and for that rea- tirely ignorant of what might be the son he thought the true interest of India intentions of the Government; all that I were not consulted by the recent reduc- knew was that the many grave and tion of the duties on the import of manu- even, in my view, alarming circumstances factures into that country. to the depreciation of silver, he thought finance, called for the expression of a Referring which surround the subject of Indian it was not due to any natural law, but very decisive opinion on the part of this to the demonetization of silver by Ger- House, on behalf of strong, energetic, many, and the reduction of mintage faci- and effectual measures for the reduction lities by the States of the Latin Union. of expenditure. There was the common The loss to the Government last year expectation that we were to have, not from this cause amounted to £3,500,000, merely the usual amicable discussion of or more than the cost of the Famine and incidental points connected with Indian the Afghan War, and it was far from finance, but that we were to have a great certain that the worst had passed. He issue regularly raised, and that all arbelieved that the grave character of this rangements had been made for clearing matter could scarcely be exaggerated, the Paper early in order that the debate and should have been glad, had the might go forward, and the decision of very able statemont of the Under Secre- the House taken by division upon the tary of State for India comprised some question raised by my hon. Friend. But, indication that the Government were de- Sir, I listened with the utmost interest voting their serious attention to it. believed that it would be some time before Under Secretary of State for India, to He to the speech of my hon. Friend the there would be an equilibrium in India. which the hon. Member who has just sat MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, although down (Mr. Sampson Lloyd) has done, I the hour has arrived at which, when a think, no more than justice in expressing debate is expected to be prolonged, we the feeling of the House that it was a usually adjourn, I do not rise for the most lucid and able exposition of the purpose of moving the adjournment, but complicated facts which he had to lay VOL. CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.] [First Night.] 2 N H before us; and it was certainly with an | pressure of the mom MR. ONSLOW ro He wished to know the House was plac Amendment? MR. SPEAKER tion before the Hou Chair, in order that mittee should consi lution, and upon t Member for Hac moved an Amendi ment is now before House think fit to to be withdrawn, t will be put from MR. FAWCETT thought, after the | from. It had been the invariable custom positive assurance of the Under Secre- of the House to grant the holders of trary of State for India, that a serious such offices compensation for the loss and earnest attempt should be made to sustained. The office of Clerk of the reduce the expenditure in every De- Peace was an ancient office, and was partment connected with India, and held for life. Formerly, the Clerks of that Natives were to be largely em- the Peace were paid, either wholly or in ployed in the Public Service, he should part, by fees which they received for be placing the House in a false posi- cases tried at Quarter Sessions; but in tion by asking for an expression of consequence of the change which took opinion upon the question of a reduc-place in 1851, at least two-thirds in tion of expenditure which had been number of the Clerks of the Peace had promised. He therefore begged permission to withdraw his Amendment, though he reserved the right of asking the House next year, if necessary, to express an opinion upon the extent to which the promises of the Under Secretary of State for India had been carried out. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair." Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." (Sir George Campbell.) Motion agreed to. Debate adjourned till To-morrow. SUMMARY JURISDICTION BILL. (Mr Secretary Cross, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now taken into Consideration."-(Mr. Secretary Cross.) MR. MORGAN LLOYI) drew attention to the alteration in the position of Clerks of the Peace which would be brought about by the operation of this Bill; and as the question was one which involved a principle of justice, he was quite sure the House would give it fair consideration. It had always been usual, whenever any change had been made which affected property, that compensation should be given for the loss sustained by reason of such change; and that principle had always been applied in cases where any change had been made which affected the holders of offices, either by depriving them of those offices, or by reducing the emoluments derived there had to commute their fees, and were now paid by salaries. But he believed a certain number of them, under 20 he thought, were still paid by fees. The proposition which he had to submit to the House was that, as the effect of this Bill would be seriously to reduce the income of these officers, some compensation should be made to them. Without troubling the House with the details of cases in point, he thought that the precedent established in the case of the Summary Jurisdiction Bill of 1855 ought to be applied on the present occasion. That Act contained the provision that Clerks of the Peace should receive compensation for the loss they had sustained by the reduction of their fees consequent upon the passing of that Act, and that principle had, he believed, been acted. upon ever since that time. Compensation had also been granted in cases where offices in different Courts of Law had been abolished; and, again, where, as in the present case, the fees and emoluments were decreased, although the offices might not have been actually done away with. But it might be asked whether it was true that the operation of this Bill, when it became law, would seriously diminish the amount of fees? That, he thought, would be perfectly obvious from the Bill itself. He held in his hand the Calendar for the last Sessions for the County of Kent; and it was clear that of the 44 prisoners tried, 31 would have come under the operation of the Act, had, it been in force. That, of course, meant a loss of a certain number of shillings in each of the 31 cases, which would, but for the operation of the Act when in force, have gone to the Clerk of the Peace. Again, with regard to the County of Middlesex, he had been told that 800 out of 1,800 prisoners tried would at once be summarily disposed of under the provisions of this Bill; and the same with other counties. These figures, he thought, showed that the result of the Bill. in its present form, would be a very material diminution of the amount of the fees now paid to Clerks of the Peace. But he had heard it said that the provisions of the Criminal Code would, when passed into law, compensate Clerks of the Peace for the loss which they were about to sustain by the operation of the present measure. That, however, was not likely to be the effect of the Code in its present shape. Its result would be this-First of all, there were five classes of offences now triable at the Sessions which, under the provisions of the Code, would be triable at the Assizes only. Against those there were two offences-namely, burglary and highway robbery, in which jurisdiction would be given to the Sessions; but he asked any hon. Member who was in the habit of acting as Chairman at Quarter Sessions, whether the cases under the five heads referred to, which were to be taken from the Sessions to the Assizes, would not be much more numerous than the cases of burglary and highway robbery, which would be added to the jurisdiction of the Quarter Sessions? The argument, therefore, that the Clerks of the Peace would derive any equivalent from the Criminal Code for the losses which they would sustain by the operation of this Bill, fell to the ground. Again, it was said that the Bill itself furnished some remedy for the loss of fees by the provisions made for appeals. But the number of these, it was well known, would be very inconsiderable; because prisoners and their relations were usually very poor, and in cases where they were defended before the magistrates their means were so exhausted that they were unable to prosecute an appeal. How few appeals, except in bastardy cases, ever came to Quarter Sessions? He ventured to say that the appeals under the provisions of this Bill, so far from adding in any essential degree to the fees at Quarter Sessions, would add very little indeed. Therefore, it came to this-that the incomes of the gentlemen who held the offices of Clerks of the Peace, and who took those offices on the supposition that the fees were to be continued to them, would be very seriously diminished, for which reason he hoped that the House would consider that it was but Mr. Morgan Lloyd just and right that the precedent which had been over and over again followed in similar cases should not be departed from in the present instance. He begged to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice. Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, compensation should be made to clerks of the peace, now paid by fees, for the diminution of their incomes which will be caused by the provisions of this Bill,"-(Mr. Morgan Lloyd,) instead thereof. Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, he would not trouble the House with many words, for all that he had to say on this subject he stated the other night. He entirely agreed that everyone having a freehold office was entitled, when that office was abolished, to be compensated; but he entirely denied that Clerks of the Peace, or any other clerks, had a vested interest in crime. Their claim was ludicrous. The hon. and learned Gentleman might just as well say, because they had taken steps to improve the dwellings of the working classes, and also to promote education, by which means they hoped to diminish crime, that Clerks of the Peace on that account had a claim to compensation. What Clerks of the Peace had was a vested right to their office, and they had a vested right, as Clerks of the Peace in the Courts, to get all the fees in respect of the business that came before those Courts; and if no business came before their Courts, then they had no right at all to compensation. He would not take up the time of the House by further debating the matter. MR. COLE said, that, although the claim of the Clerks of the Peace to conpensation might seem very ludicrous to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, yet he must venture to differ from him. He quite agreed with him that Clerks of the Peace had no vested interest in crime; but they had a vested interest in their fees. What was now being done was to transfer the dealing with crime from one jurisdiction to another. The amount of crime would remain entirely the same; but it was treated in a dif |