MR. NEWDEGATE expressed a hope that if the Government intended to give an opportunity for the further consideration of this Bill, it would not be brought on so near the end of the Session as was the case with the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Bill of last year, which was taken after a large number of hon. Members had left London. Referring to what had fallen from the hon. Member who had just resumed his seat, he said that the Members of the House must make up their minds whether they would exercise control over their own Business; because it appeared to him that the section of the House to which the hon. Member belonged had undertaken to exercise a kind of lordship over their time. For his own part--and he believed he was speaking the feeling of the majority of the English and Scotch Members-he refused to submit to such a control. occasion was that the Government were | ing at the action of the Government, I anxious, and were almost prepared, to think that that time has come, and that give facilities for the further discussion the Irish Members, who have been sent of the measure; and he almost an- here to endeavour to settle this question, nounced that they would consider imme- should take the very earliest oppordiately as to the day on which the Bill tunity of consulting together in order should be taken. It happened, however, to see what course should be taken in that some private Members-the hon. reference to the Bill and the shifting and gallant Gentleman the Member for conduct of the Government. Galway (Major Nolan) being the firstoffered to give up Wednesday last in order that the second reading of the Bill might be taken. What is the impression the conduct of the Government will make out-of-doors? It will be said Her Majesty's Government are waiting to see how the wind may blow on the subject of Irish University Education. The manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has dealt with the subject shows that the Government are not able to make up their minds, and are waiting to see how the tide of public opinion will run to determine their attitude. I do not think it contributes to the dignity of the Leader of this House that an important question like this should be dealt with as he has dealt with it. My hon. Friend has been asking him for further facilities for the purpose of this Bill; the right hon. Gentleman was able to find facilities for the introduction of the measure, and the state of Public Business was then much the same as it is now; but as he had not ascertained what the state of public opinion is outof-doors, he has not been able to offer any further facilities at present. Surely, a most unsatisfactory position for a Leader of the House and a Member of the Government. As a Representative of an Irish constituency, I protest against -I will not say the juggling, but I will say the equivocal and ambiguous conduct of the Government in reference to this Bill. I regret the rather too conciliatory tone which I think the hon. Member for Roscommon has adopted on this occasion. [Mr. BIGGAR: Hear, hear!] I am one of those who put very little faith in any compromise that may be sanctioned by hon. Gentlemen opposite. But I felt it my duty to preserve silence, and to give my hon. Friend all the assistance in my power, because I felt that my hon. Friend was engaged in a difficult and dangerous task. There is a time when conciliation must come to an end, and when compromise is only another word for surrender; and, look Mr. O'Connor Power MR. COGAN approved of the course which his hon. Friend (the O'Conor Don) had taken in not yet abandoning the Bill. That was a step of the most serious import, and the political feeling it would create in Ireland would be most disastrous and dangerous to the common weal of the United Kingdom. He believed the course which had been already taken by Government with regard to the measure would create a feeling of uneasiness, a feeling.of want of confidence in the Parliament being able to deal with matters of great importance to Ireland, and a feeling of distrust, the effects of which he felt would be impossible to exaggerate. He had already stated in that House that he believed it would be an ill day for the United Kingdom if the people of Ireland came to believe that a question which had been admitted by two great Parties in that House to be a question that required settlement, and to be inevitably interesting to the welfare of their country-if they came to believe, after it had been admitted that this question was so important and so necessary to be dealt with, that, after all, their hopes had been trifled with, and that neither the Government nor the House was prepared seriously to take the question into consideration. Whatever might be the fate or the result of the Bill now before the House, he felt that his hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon had done a wise and good act in placing before Parliament a moderate and reasonable proposal for settling this question. In that proposal he had had the concurrence of many Irish Members who sat on the opposite of the House, as well as on this; and it was so reasonable and so evidently fair that it had elicited the warm support of even so strong an advocate of secular education as the right hon. Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe). In the few sentences which the right hon. Gentleman uttered yesterday in that House, he spoke what he (Mr. Cogan) believed to be wise advice, when he asked hon. Members to consider whether they would not enter on a new departure in dealing with this question, and endeavour, as an act of great statesmanship, to secure on the part of the Irish people feelings of love, and not of hate. He felt those words of the right hon. Gentlemen were true; and as one who had been for many years an Irish Representative in that House, he had not himself abandoned the hope that the Parliament of the United Kingdom was able and willing to deal with questions that affected the welfare of his country. It would be a matter of deep regret to him if the day came when he should feel it necessary to abandon that hope. He confessed those feelings would be greatly influenced by the future course of Her Majesty's Ministers and the influential Leaders of public opinion who sat in that House; and if which he would deeply regret-he should be forced to come to the conclusion that this Parliament would not be prepared to deal with this question, as he believed was required by justice and the interests of his countrymen-deeply as he should regret it-having now for 27 years been a Member of that House -he should feel that the time had arrived when he should abandon the hope. He should no longer ask to be elected to this House, when he felt that he was utterly powerless to aid in carrying out the wishes of those who sent him there; and he should feel it to be his duty to retire into private life, deeply regretting that the course taken by this House should have done the most serious thing possible in endangering the continuance of the union between the two countries. MAJOR NOLAN: I wish to ask if the country can be expected to believe that it is the difficulty of time which prevents the Government giving a day? The Chancellor of the Exchequer says "Yes;" but I must say that it is a new event in Parliamentary history, when a matter is before the House which may determine whether Gentlemen on this side of the House or Gentlemen on that side shall form the Government after the next Election, that we should be told the want of a day prevents the matter being discussed. Why, there are plenty of ways of doing it. You might make the Session one day longer, or sacrifice a Saturday, or adopt various other methods which will be obvious to the youngest Member. It is quite in accordance, however, with previous experience that the Leader of the Government may not want to commit himself on a great question, and that he may so manoeuvre as to keep dangling a particular bait before a large section of the country, and, by refusing to give a day for the matter to be debated, so tide over the time till the next General Election. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken great credit to himself for giving us an hour and a-half for this Bill the other night. That was the first time he had given us an hour for any purpose this Session, and, after all, what did that hour and a-half give us? We know what a first reading is. It gives the Mover an opportunity of making his speech and stating the substance of his measure; but it does not force the Government to express any opinion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us a hour and a-half, knowing he would not be obliged to commit himself to any promise of support. Perhaps the Bill being put down for Wednesday was a little surprise to the Government; but with a great skill they managed to let the debate go on for five hours without showing any sign. At the end of that time the Chancellor of the Exchequer did get up, and he said there were a great many good things in the Bill and a great many bad things, and there were various things that he recommended and he hoped they would be allowed to proceed to Business. MR. O'DONNELL: I shall not detain the House very long; but I wish to point to one or two observations made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When the right hon. Gentleman refers to a number of Government Bills, and to his desire for getting through these Bills before he can consider the question of granting a day for this important Irish measure, and when he allows other determined opponents of justice to the Roman Catholics of Ireland to exercise the time of the House in the discussion of these Government measures, so as to make it impossible for them to grant a day, I think we have a right to assume that there is little probability of our obtaining further facilities. For all we know of the extreme violence--I would add, virulence of the anti-Christian party of this country, there cannot be the slightest doubt but that they will be able to bring sufficient influence upon probably well-meaning, but susceptible, Members of the House, to use the time of the House in what may be considered legitimate discussion. The Government for consideration. He went into other points; but he never said Yes or No. He never told us whether he was going to support the Bill or oppose it. At the present moment we are perfectly baffled. All we know is that certain Conservative Irish Members have put their names on the back of the Bill; and, on the other hand, we certainly attach some importance to some cheers with which hon. Members below the Gangway opposite greeted some of the arguments against the measure. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants to ascertain the feelings of his own Party; and, therefore, to put off committing himself either way till the last day. Now, I will tell you how he will probably treat my hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon. He will give him a day very late in the Session, and then at the end of the debate he will say there is no use going on with the measure at such a period of the Session, and that it had better be put off. I believe that is the position in which we shall be placed, unless we obtain some more definite promise than we have yet received. If we have to put the Bill off till next Session, then we shall have to put it off till next Par-will, doubtless, give them the oppor liament; and at the General Election the constituents in some parts of the Kingdom will be told the Government are against the measure, and those in Ireland will be asked to believe they are in favour of it. In that way the Government hope to secure a majority, if their cards are well played. I do not think this is a high way of governing the country; but we have sometimes seen it done, and it is not inconsistent with the action of the Governwent up to the present hour. To say that a day cannot be found for a measure supported by three-fourths of the Irish people-for it is supported by Irish Members on that side as well as on this-and a measure which may largely influence the General Election, is to show that the Government wish to retain in their hands, till after the Dissolution, the power of either supporting or opposing us. MR. A. MILLS said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given the House no reason to suppose that the Government were trifling in the matter. On the contrary, he said he would do his best to appoint another day for the consideration of the subject. They had now been discussing the matter for an hour, Major Nolan tunity which they require, and which may render it impossible to deal with the subject of University Education. Whatever may have been the charges brought against me on many occasions, I have certainly no desire on this occasion to address the House in language which may be considered, in the slightest degree, aggravating. I may, in my conduct, have shown a disposition slightly to amend and alter a Christian precept, and to have asked the House to do unto others as they would do unto us. But, on the present occasion, I am singularly disposed to act in the most conciliatory manner towards the Government and Opposition; but I cannot conceal from myself that there is a resolute determination to refuse justice to the Roman Catholics of Ireland amongst an influential party in this country. In reference to the suggestion, I have only one other observation to make. It is too commonly reported-and I am afraid too commonly believed-that this demand for denominational education in Ireland, for Catholic education, for freedom of Catholic education in Ireland, for liberty and equality of education, is a mere sacerdotal and episcopal demand, originating in, and supported by, the priests. It is said that the Catholics of Ireland are merely moving like a drilled battalion at the command of their episcopal commanders-in-chief. I beg to say that nothing of the sort is the case. No man reverences more than I do the Catholic clergy and hierarchy of Ireland; but I, as a Catholic Member of the House, take upon myself the responsibility of saying that, if there were a hesitation, if there were a variation, in the attitude of the Catholic Bishops and priests of Ireland, with regard to the absolute necessity of the Catholic education of the Catholic people of Ireland, dearly as the people of Ireland love their faithful pastors, from that day a gulf would be fixed between the people and the clergy. If, by an impossible and monstrous hypothesis, the Catholic clergy and Bishops of Ireland were to be in favour of secular education, they might go to Zululand, they might go to Patagonia; but a new class of priests and Bishops would have to appear in Ireland to resume the unbroken traditions of Catholic Ireland. That is, as I have said, a monstrous and impossible hypothesis. The priests and the people are united on the subject; but I beg to assure the House that the question of Catholic education in Ireland is a layman's question. If the present moderate demand of the Irish people is refused, the Catholic laity of Ireland will take it up with determination, and there is no doubt as to what will be the result. Supposing there is any irresolution on the part of the clergy, the laity will insist that the Irish people shall receive an education which will fit them for the combat of life, for progress in every department of the world's affairs, in conformity with the conscience, the hereditary instincts, and the glorious traditions of the Catholic people of Ireland, who look back upon 45 generations of Catholic ancestors. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I must confess there appears to me to be hardly sufficient cause for the expressions of despair and irritation which have reached us from a certain quarter of the House. If hon. Members representing Irish constituencies will consider the position of this Bill, I think they will be obliged to acknowledge that they have cried out before they are hurt. I really cannot remember any Bill of similar importance to the Bill which is before us having made such rapid progress. If they will take the trouble to consider the matter, they will find that it was only introduced by the assistance of the Government on this day last week, and it has already received a considerable amount of discussion on the second reading. I rose yesterday, immediately upon the adjournment of the debate, to press upon the Government the expediency of making some arrangement as to its resumption; and I do not think that anyone will suspect I am indifferent to the importance of the subject, or that I have refrained from impressing the importance of it upon the notice of the Government. I think that the Government, upon further consideration, will see that it is not only desirable, but absolutely necessary, that a question which has excited so much attention as this, not only in Ireland, but also in England, and in this House, should receive further and full consideration before the close of the Session. The reason for this was given by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), and the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan); and I hope the opportunity will be afforded before we arrive at a late period of the Session. I do not detect in anything which fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer an absolute refusal to give an opportunity for further discussion. I understood him to state simply the position of the Government Business, and to say, under these circumstances, it was not in his power to fix at this time a day for continuing the debate. The hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) has taken a proper and reasonable course in putting the Bill down for an early day after Whitsuntide, when the House and the Government will be able to see what progress they have made, or are likely to make, with some of the most important measures, and the Government will also have an opportunity of further considering the importance of this great subject, and the necessity of giving the Bill some further consideration. I really think that hon. Members from Ireland might wait, at all events, until after Whitsuntide, before they express their condemnation of the conduct of the Government; but, so far as I am able to judge, there is nothing which has fallen from the We should have been children, did we not see that he did not mean to afford opportunity for the resumption of the debate upon this Bill. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer retains his present ideas, it is hopeless to suppose the Bill can be passed; and I see no reason why he should retain the unfortunate idea he has taken up. I will not prolong the debate; but I should not abandon the Bill hastily if the Government retain their opinion after Whitsuntide. We shall have had an opportunity of considering the matter, and we may take such measures as may seem desirable and necessary in reference to the subject. Chancellor of the Exchequer to-night | passed, and the small amount of prothat in the slightest degree approaches gress which had been made with others. an absolute refusal to give the consideration required on behalf of the Bill. DR. WARD said, hon. Members had complained that the House had been taken by surprise in this matter, and that very short Notice had been given of the Bill. The question, however, had been before the House for the last 20 years. It had been brought forward by responsible Ministers of the Crown of opposite sides; and, under those circumstances, were they to be told that they were taken by surprise? Why, this Parliament had heard the arguments over and over again. There was no proposal in the present Bill which had not already been before the House. Surely the House had by this time made up its mind; and if the Government were in earnest in this business, it certainly must be within their power to give them a Saturday for the discussion of the subject. Hon. Members might say that if such a course was pursued the Motion would be againt the Irish Members. But if that were so, often as they differed, he could assure the House that they would pass the Bill in a proper form. What he wanted to impress upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer was this-The right hon. Gentleman knew he would have to give in at some time, that he would have to sacrifice a day sooner or later. Let him, then, make the sacrifice graciously now. Give them a day-say a Saturday; that would not sacrifice the time of the Government, but it would meet the requirements of this Bill. MR. PARNELL: I do not join in the belief that has been expressed by hon. Members that it is hopeless to try to pass the Bill. The hon. Member for Ros MR. SHAW: I think we need not continue the debate further, especially after the appeal to the Government by the noble Lord. I shall, therefore, ask permission to withdraw the Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. THE "HOME RULE" PARTY. QUESTION. SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Cork County (Mr. Shaw) the Question of which I have given him private Notice, Whether we may in future look to him as the Leader of that section of the House below the Gangway, called the Home Rule Party? MR. SPEAKER: The Question of the hon. Baronet does not refer to any Bill or Motion before the House, and cannot, therefore, be put. ORDERS OF THE DAY. 1000m common (The O'Conor Don) has adopted INDIA EAST INDIA REVENUE AC a courageous course in persevering with the measure for a while longer. At the same time, I do not agree that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done everything that is required of him. The hon. Member for Roscommon has asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give a day for the resumption of the debate, and he did not ask for the day to be mentioned at the present moment, but what was the reply? The Chancellor of the Exchequer went over a long list of Bills introduced by the Government, and he pointed out how very few had been The Marquess of Hartington COUNTS-FINANCIAL STATEMENT. COMMITTEE. [FIRST NIGHT.] Order for Committee read. move "that Mr. Speaker do now leave MR. E. STANHOPE, in rising to the Chair," in order that the House should go into Committee upon the East India Revenue accounts, said, that in making the usual Statement with regard to the finances of India he felt, looking to the numerous and intricate subjects with which that Statement must necessarily deal, and to the public interest |