{COMMONS}

received a letter from the late Lord Chancellor, to whom he had referred a few evenings since, as an authority in favour of his own views of the justice of paying off the debt in a currency of the value of that in which it had been contracted, in which that noble Lord stated that his opinions were diametrically opposite to those imputed to him. He therefore thought it right to inform the House of the circumstance, regretting that he had not the support of the noble Lord's opinion for his view of the Question.

KENT PETITION-CORN LAWS.] Sir E. Knatchbull had a Petition to present from the Gentry and Freeholders of the county of Kent, the result of the late important meeting which had been held at Penenden-heath. He could not present it without observing, that it afforded one more proof of the continued existence of the distress which unfortunately afflicted the country. One of his strongest apprehensions was that which a right hon. Gentleman opposite had so lately expressed -namely, that the effect of the present depressed state of the landed interest would be to diminish the number of that class of most useful and influential country gentlemen who had from 1,2007. to 1,500l. a-year. The hon. Baronet then read passages from the Petition, declaratory of the prevailing distress in the county of Kent, which he could verify from his observation for instance, he knew that the tillage of a great quantity of land in that county was at present in a very deteriorated state. The petitioners complained of the continued increase of Poor-rates; they also complained of the system of what was called Free Trade, which they thought, in the condition of the people of this country, was very injurious at this moment, when wool was at so low a price, as well as hides, tallow, &c. Such, too, was the pressure of taxation upon the productive sources of public industry, that the people universally complained of it. This amount of taxation he knew could not be helped if it were actually necessary to maintain the essential establishments of the State. He was ready, as he had told his constituents, to press for the utmost remission of taxes; but that alone would not do the country wanted other measures as well. The Currency was also mentioned as an ingredient in the distresses of the people; and the petitioners

Corn Laws.

988

further called for Parliamentary Reform. He had told them at the meeting that he would be ready to assist in the exposure and redress of any specific abuse which sentation, but he would not assent to spewas proved to have occurred in the repreculative and indefinite propositions of reform. His constituents likewise called try,-a call, he feared, not likely to be for inquiry into the distresses of the counobeyed, after the experience which the House had of the late four nights' debate. He highly approved of the recent abolihe did not think that the abolition of the tion of the Leather and Cider duties; but duty on Beer was likely to be as useful as some hon. Members anticipated. Indeed, his firm opinion was, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had gone further in the remission of those taxes which pressed peculiarly upon the middling classes, he would have done more to grant immediate relief to the working classes generally, than could be expected from his late arrangements. He moved that the Petition be brought up.

the meeting in Kent, and it gave him great Mr. Wells said, that he was present at pain to see how great and how universal they found themselves in this condition, it was the distress of the people. When call for a reform in Parliament, and dewas not to be wondered at, that they should clare that had they obtained reform in time, many of their present evils would have been averted. Indeed, before this petition had been agreed to by the meetmentary Reform, was adopted, on the ing, an address to the King, for Parliaground that the people were tired of seeking it from the House of Commons. His hon. friend's efforts to impede this vigour beyond the law, for so he must call the fact of the people addressing the King because they were tired of addressing the House of Commons, were as unavailing on Penenden-heath as similar efforts made by him in the previous year, in that House, Constitution which was then perpetrated. were in averting the great inroad upon the He believed that many measures had at various times passed through the House of Commons which would not have been so successful had the people had a little This was the complaint made by Mr. Pitt more influence over their representatives. in 1782, who said, that without reform it was impossible to save this nation from being plunged into new wars; that with

989

Kent Petition

{MARCH 29}

out it the people could not be protected
from a bad Minister, nor have the benefit
The hon.
of the measures of a good one.
Member again adverted to the great pres-
sure of distress in Kent, and conjured the
House to give the prayer of the petition
its serious attention.

Mr. Honywood said, that the object of
his constituents was-first, to obtain re-
lief from the present weight of taxation,
under which they were fast sinking; and
next, to obtain Parliamentary Reform, with
the view of preventing similar evils in
future. The distress of the country was
great, and he believed in too many cases
rents were paid out of capital, and not
from profits of cultivation. That was not
the first nor the fourth petition which had
been sent from the county of Kent, in
favour of a reform of Parliament; but the
present great distress of the petitioners
solicitous than
now made them more
For himself he
ever to obtain reform.
would say, that he had for twenty years
been an advocate for reform, and the ex-
perience of each successive year had only
given greater strength to his first impres-
sions upon that question.

Sir Francis Burdett said, that the question of reform having been agitated and agreed to at that meeting of the county of Kent, showed that the principles of reform were making way all over the country. He therefore was quite satisfied that hou. Members would at length become convinced of the absolute necessity of giving the people a greater weight in their representative system; and that the old apprehensions by which well-intentioned persons were deluded and prevented from supporting this principle could no longer be attempted with any chance of success. He was sorry, however, to see in this petition, in the greater part of which he cordially concurred, certain observations respecting the principles of what was called Free Trade, for it was not those principles, which had never been fully acted on, which caused their distress. They had, indeed, been called into practice so far as to derange the old system, without giving the country all the advantages of that new system of which they were nominally the basis. He was satisfied that when the principles of Free Trade were fully understood, and fairly applied, the people would see that they could not be injured by them, or that they had any reason for opposing them. The sooner misapprehensions upon

this point were removed, the better for the
country, for as matters stood, no Govern-
ment, especially while that House was
constituted as at present, could safely em-
bark in any large application of the prin-
ciples. Free Trade, indeed, could never
be said to be fairly dealt by, or all its ad-
vantages given to the public, until the
Corn-laws, which were the great obstacle
to Free Trade, were removed. They stood
broad in the way of the Government in
adopting this enlightened principle of
action.

Indeed, he was so satisfied that
the country gentlemen were themselves
exceedingly in error on the subject of these
Corn-laws, that he meant, soon after
Easter, to bring forward a motion, the
object of which would be, to have them
repealed. When he did so, he hoped it
would be unnecessary for him to press upon
them that the proposition did not come
from one who was hostile to their interests,
but from one who was identified with them,
and who thought that not only for the
general prosperity of the country, but for
the particular advantage of its landowners,
It was a fallacy
these laws ought to cease.
to suppose that the country gentlemen
had any separately beneficial interest in
this respect from the other classes of the
community; on the contrary, their in-
terest must always go on pari passu with
that of the people at large. So impressed
was he that these laws were most injurious,
and to the landed interests as well as other
interests, that he had very little doubt if
the gentlemen of the country would only
keep their minds open, that he need not
despair of convincing them that they ought
to be the first to get rid of this stumbling-
block to the fair trial of the principle of
Free Trade in all their commodities.
this he was quite satisfied, that the Corn-
laws were a real bar to the prosperity of
the country. It had been said, with refer-
ence to the question of Parliamentary Re
form, that the time was when no loyal
person would advocate it. For himself
he could fairly say, that he had never
thought it disloyal to urge this topic, be-
cause he had always contended that to
give the people their fair weight in the re-
presentation was not more essential to
their happiness than to the stability of the
throne itself.

The Petition ordered to be printed.

Of

SUPPLY.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer, having moved the Order of the

The Report was then brought up. On the question that it be read,

Day for bringing up the Report of the
Committee of Supply,

Mr. Bernal begged to know if there was any truth in the report that it was intended to deprive the captains of his Majesty's ships of the power they had hitherto possessed to appoint midshipmen? He understood that something of that kind was to be introduced in the new regulations, which, besides being prejudicial to the service, he was sure would create great discontent.

Sir G. Cockburn said, that all the patronage the captains had enjoyed was to be continued with respect to the appointment of midshipmen; but they were to be deprived of the nomination of the first class of volunteers. One captain received a number of volunteers on board, and then perhaps in six months another was appointed, who received an additional number, and so they continued until the ship returned, when they were set on shore without any provision. To remedy this evil the Admiralty had taken the appointments into their own hands, resolving to receive none who were not afterwards to be provided for.

Mr. Maberly wished, he said, to call the attention of the right honorable the Secretary of War to the Marine corps, which appeared to him expensive and unnecessary. It consisted of 4,000 men, though the gallant Admiral opposite had stated that 1,000 would be sufficient to perform the requisite duties. If it were said that they were wanted for garrison duty, that he would contend could be performed by the regular troops. If 4,000 marines were kept up for that purpose, they were unnecessary, or 4,000 of the regular troops ought to be reduced. The reduction of these 4,000 men would be a saving of 200,000l. a year-a sufficient sum to make him think the subject well deserving the attention of the House of Commons. He was aware that the reduction could not be made this year, but he did hope if the Secretary-at-war and the gallant Admiral took counsel together, that they would be able to save this sum next year. In reply to a question of Mr. Hume, Sir G. Clerk stated, that there was no separate charge for victualling the marines.

The Report of the Committee was read. Mr. Hume objected to the sum of 5,0001. voted for the payment of fees, and declared that he would move as an amendment to leave out that sum; but forbore to press the matter, on the Chancellor of the Exchequer undertaking to look into the subject, and make such an alteration as would next year be satisfactory to the hon. Member. He further inquired if the expense of the ships lying in ordinary had not been greatly increased. He had received information, that it had been increased to the amount of 5,000l. a year, and he should be glad to learn whether or not that were correct.

Mr. Hume said, that before the Report was brought up, he wished to know whether or not it was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to ask for a grant of money for works in Canada. He put this question because an hon. friend of his, who had a motion standing relative to that colony, desired to know, and could not attend in his place to ask, and he thought, as well as his hon. friend, that no vote should pass till the general questions connected with that colony had been discussed. He thought that the right hon. and gallant General at the head of the Colonial Government should bring forward his propositions on the subject before any money was asked for. The complaints of the people of that colony were so nu- Sir Byam Martin said, the system folmerous, and in his opinion so well ground-lowed at present was different from the ed, that to vote money for the colony till system formerly in use: captains had been the causes of them were removed appeared substituted for masters; but as there were to him highly improper. In fact, unless fewer of them, the expense was not insome conciliatory measure were first intro- creased, while the ships were much better duced, he should resist the grant of any taken care of. money whatever for Canada.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer would do every thing in his power to further the views of the hon. Gentleman, but he could fix no day for the discussion of the general questions connected with Canada. He would postpone it as long as possible.

Mr. Monck objected to the vote for what is called "the widow's charity," which, he said, was a misnomer. In the ordinary acceptation of the word 'charity' meant a gift from the rich to the poor; in this case, however, the poor contributed to raise a fund for the benefit of the rich,

and were at the same time excluded from any share in its advantages. Having previously, however, made several remarks on the subject, he would then only ask whether the regulation bestowed pensions on widows in proportion to the rank of their husbands; whether every case was considered on its own merits, and whether there was any intention on the part of the Government to adopt some means of curtailing this expense.

Sir G. Clerk stated, that the amount of the pension was always determined by the rank of the officer when he died, and that measures would be adopted to prevent the increase of this branch of expenditure.

were entitled to a pension by an Order in Council, and it was not thought right to depart from the old practice with regard to those appointed before that time.

Mr. Maberly was of opinion that a report of the number of Pensions granted by Government should be annually laid on the Table of the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said such a Report was to be laid on the Table.

Mr. Monck did not object to the particular vote of 3007., but he repeated his complaints of a want of uniformity in granting pensions. Here was the widow of a commissioner who had 300l. a year, while the widow of a common sailor or soldier had no allowance whatever. The hon. Baronet had informed the House that such pensions were to be discontinued in the civil service, and perhaps the hon. Baronet would recommend that the same principle should be adopted in the military and naval service.

Mr. Hume asked, what necessity there was to have flag officers at Portsmouth, Plymouth, Chatham, and Cork, particularly at Chatham, where there were never more than two or three ships. The salaries of these officers amounted to 12,000. or 14,000l. a year, which, in his opinion, was money wasted. He would like also to know why houses were hired for these Admirals when between 30,000l. and 40,0007. had been expended on building them suitable habitations.

Mr. Hume stated, that the object of his hon. friend was, to see one principle adopted throughout the public service, according to which the widow of an officer should no more be pensioned than the widow of a private soldier. It seemed to him extremely hard that the widow of a soldier, who had served in all countries and climates for the greater part of his life, should receive nothing, while the widow of an officer, who had perhaps served only a few years, and never been abroad, should be provided for. At present the Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, in short, every branch of the public service, had its own peculiar system of granting pensions, which to him appeared very improper, and he should recommend that pensions be altogether abolished. They encouraged marriage, which, in his opinion, ought rather to be discouraged in the Sir G. Cockburn replied, that these Adofficers as well as in the men. The pre-mirals were necessary to carry on the sent system encouraged officers to marry, public service, and as none but old and and unless it were checked the charge for distinguished officers were appointed to pensions must augment every year. It these situations, they might also be conwas the duty of the Government to make sidered as the reward of merit. He did some alteration, and at least to have one ge- not think that it would be possible to disneral uniform system for granting pensions pense with the services of such officers, or in every branch of the public service. The reduce the Estimate any lower. hon. Member also protested against the grant of 300l. a year to the widow of commissioner Sir George Grey. He saw no reason why the widow of a poor shipbuilder, who had served twenty years, should get no allowance; while the widow of a commissioner, receiving a large salary, and serving perhaps not half the time, should have 3007. a year for her life.

Sir G. Cockburn said, that pensions of that kind were no longer granted, nor had there been any granted to the widows of commissioners appointed since the year 1825. Before that time, however, they VOL. XXIII.

All the Resolutions of the Committee were agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] The Order of the Day having been read for the House to resolve itself into the Committee of Supply

The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that the Estimates of the Civil Contingencies be referred to the said Committee.

Mr. Hume declared that he would oppose that and every other motion of a similar nature, until it should be explained why a passage had not been opened for

2 K

the public from the bottom of Waterloo- | the rights of those who held the leases in place into St. James's Park. He wished question were first purchased by the pubto know why the promise that had been lic, a proceeding to which he presumed made by the right hon. Gentleman oppo- Parliament would not be inclined. site, when he was at the head of the Woods and Forests, had not been fulfilled?

Mr. Arbuthnot said, that the hon. Gentleman was in error in supposing that he had made any such promise as that alluded to. When he had been asked if any such opening would be made, his answer was, that he could not state until he saw the plans. When the plans were presented at his office they contained no such opening.

Mr. Hume maintained, that an opening was promised by his Majesty's Government; but whether by the right hon. Gentleman or some other member of it, he did not recollect.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer put it to the hon. member for Montrose, whether the present was the fittest occasion for the discussion of this question?

Mr. Arbuthnot agreed with the hon. member for Abingdon, that it would not be in the power of the Government to throw open the whole area of the park to the public, but there was a portion of itthe hon. Member knew the part to which he alluded--which he (Mr. Arbuthnot) had intended to open to the public had he remained at the head of the department over which he formerly presided. What would be done now with reference to that part of the park he could not say; but he would say, if he had remained at the head of that department, he intended to open it to the public. [hear]

Mr. Protheroe said, that every hon. Member who passed down to the House by Charing-cross must have had his feelings and nerves annoyed in coming along that exceedingly dirty passage. There could, therefore, be no greater convenience, not only to members of Parliament, but to the public, than the making of an opening from Waterloo-place into St. James's park. He did not believe that a pledge had been given to that effect by Government, but he thought, upon the high ground of public convenience, that opening should be called for. He trusted that this passage would be made, and that also the area of the Regent's-park would be opened to the public. He trusted too that the noble lord now at the head of the Woods and Forests, and who, he was sure, was desirous to do every thing for the public convenience, would finally have the Regent's park thrown open to the public like Hyde park, and that also a passage would be opened, and a flight of steps made, from Waterloo-place into St. James's park.

Mr. Lennard observed, that the opening for which his hon. friend wished, would add greatly to the beauty of the street, than which nothing could be more unsightly than its present appearance. The wall which had been erected completely obstructed the view of the park. While he was upon his legs, he wished to say a few words on another subject. A few years ago the right hon. Gentleman promised that at the expiration of a certain period the interior of the Regent's Park should be opened to the public. The time he conceived had now fully expired, and the public had a right to demand that the expectation should be realized. It was well known that there was a very dense population in the neighbourhood of the Regent's Park, to whom the liberty of walking over the whole of it, instead of being confined to the narrow Mr. Hume said, whether or not a pledge roads by which it was bounded, would be had been given that this opening should a great convenience and advantage. The be made, he trusted it would be for the plantations had now grown up. If, how-public convenience. He concurred with ever, any mischief to them were still apprehended, it would surely be very easy to give directions that some of the policemen should be on the spot, for the purpose of preventing it.

Mr. Maberly referred to the leases granted to those who had built villas in the Regent's Park, in order to show that Government had no power to open the interior of the park to the public, unless

the right hon. gentleman opposite that this subject could be mooted on a fitter occasion. Several votes connected with the parks must come under their notice, and the House would then have an opportunity for discussing this subject.

The estimates were then ordered to be referred to the Committee.

On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,