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sition to his recommendation; but, if they f country could well afford to pay the 1,000%. were not satisfactory, or the vote for the or 1,2007.; and so it had proved, for there officers' salary be not withdrawn, he would was a saving of nearly one-half in the excertainly take the sense of the Committee penditure. A similar improvement had upon the propriety of putting down this likewise taken place in another more trigrant. fling article. The average expenditure on the Infirmary, for the seven years previous to the appointment of the Paymaster, was 1,2717.; it had been since reduced to 1921. If the hon. gentleman were to abolish the office of Paymaster of the Marines, the duties of the office might go on elsewhere, but they could not be carried on without additional hands; and if there were persons unemployed in any office it would be for the hon. Gentleman to show it, that they might be at once reduced; but for himself he must say, that he did not know any office to which the addition of such important duties could be made, as those of the Paymaster of Marines, without a proportional increase of hands. The hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Parnell) had suggested in his work the propriety of appointing a general pay-board in this country; and this, undoubtedly, might be the case; but he believed there was no more sure way of creating confusion and expense than that of mixing up heterogeneous matters for the superintendence of the same department. same department. Besides, it would only be a change of names-if they ceased to have a Paymaster, they must have a Commissioner of Pay-if they ceased to have an Inspector, they must have a Commissioner of Inspection. The office, in fact, let it be called by what name it might, could not be dispensed with, for there was no officer to whom there was more constant reference, none who was more frequently required to appear before the Admiralty Board than the Paymaster of Marines. The hon. Member had admitted that he had nothing to allege against the present Paymaster of the Marines, indeed a more zealous and able officer was not to be found. He had filled other situations with honour, and he had been appointed to his present situation because he was admirably qualified to perform its duties. The hon. Member has stated that the office was unnecessary, but on this point they were directly at issue. He was ready to contend that the office was necessary, and even indispensable. The House had, therefore, to decide between them and considering his long experience, and the absence of all personal interest, he thought his evidence upon the matter was entitled

Mr. Croker said, the hon. Member had observed, that the office of Paymaster of the Marines was expensive and unnecessary; the first it confessedly was; but as to the second, it appeared from the hon. Gentleman's own admission, that these duties which, he contended, might be transferred to another department, were numerous and important. Now, his strong impression was, that there could be no more sure way of creating confusion in the public service, and imposing on the country an increased expense, than that of uniting the Marine barrack department with the Ordnance. The Paymaster of the Marines did a great deal of duty in his double capacity; for he was not only a Pay-officer, but an officer of inspection and control: he was Paymaster and Inspector-general of the Marines. Now, the hon. Member, in the first place, asked why the Marine barracks were not brought under the superintendence of the Board of Ordnance. But, in fact, there was an essential difference between the management of the Army barracks and those for Marines. In the first, there was a constant change of inmates: one regiment marched out-another supplied its place; but the other barracks were constantly occupied by Marines, and therefore the accounts must necessarily be kept in a very different manner. The attention of the House had been called to the state of these barracks at different times; and, he believed, it must be admitted on all hands, that the expenditure, under the superintendence of the Paymaster of Marines, had been diminished in as great a degree as it could have been under any other Administration. The numbers in the barracks were invariably the same, and the average amount of expenditure for the seven years previous to the appointment of the Paymaster was 16,800l., while the average for the fourteen years subsequent had been brought down to 9,4001. And after the change had taken place, Mr. Tierney rose in his place and moved a compensation to each of the officers previously engaged in the department, amounting to 300l. or 4001. a year, in consequence, as he stated, of the new system, which was so economical that the

to higher consideration than that of the hon. Gentleman. The Admiralty had done every thing that it could, consistently with prudence and sound policy, to consolidate offices; but the consolidation proposed by the hon. Gentleman would be only creative of confusion and expense.

and a system of audit should be established, in which the demand should be examined before any money was paid. The system of payment by one department was adopted in France, in other countries, and had been found to answer extremely well. So far as he could understand the whole system by which thirty millions of public money were annually paid in France, it seemed to him well worthy of the imitation of Great Britain. At all events he trusted that the payment of the public money would be taken into consideration by the Government, and that the system would be simplified. He meant to support his hon. friend the Member for Aberdeen.

Mr. Maberly said, the question to be decided was, if that office were necessary. He contended that it was not. The Payoffice of the Navy might pay the 10,000 marines in addition to the 19,000 seamen ; and the duties of inspection might be performed by the General, Lieutenant-general, Major-general, or some of the other officers of the Marines who were so highly paid. He was convinced that this department was of no advantage to the public, and that its duties might be quite as well discharged, and at less expense, if they were arranged in the manner he had proposed. With respect to the Marine barracks, and the clothing for the marines, both these departments ought to be, he thought, transferred to the Ordnance, which already provided the clothing and stores for the artillery, and had the general inspection of barracks. He felt so strongly concerning the manner in which these matters were now arranged, that he was almost disposed to call the arrangement by the odious name of a job; the whole of the expenses, both for paying the marines and separate inspection of their barracks, being, in his opinion, wholly unnecessary.

Sir H. Parnell said, that the hon. Secretary of the Admiralty might have urged all his present arguments against the former consolidation of the Barrack Department with the Board of Ordnance, which had been found so beneficial. Indeed no measure of economy was ever recommended which did not find Gentlemen to oppose it, in speeches similar to that the House had just heard, sitting on the Treasury benches. It was their business to persuade the House that reductions would not benefit the nation. The speech of the hon. Gentleman was not only an answer to the hon. Member for Aberdeen, it went to contradict the Treasury Minute of 1822, by which the consolidation of offices was recommended, its utility explained, and its applicability to all departments enforced. He was convinced that if this speech were written out, and so subjected to the examination of the Committee, that they would see reason to decide that it contained more sophistry than solid reasoning. Unless the House were to resist such sophistry, and say once for all, you must reduce your expenditure, we will give you no more than a certain sum-he was afraid no extensive reduction would ever take place. Before he gave his opinion upon totally abolishing the office, he wished to say that the present Paymaster of the Marines, whose merits he had admitted, had certainly made several reductions in his department, but this by no means proved those reductions to be sufficient. With all that Gentleman's zeal and ability, however, the reductions he was capable of making would not satisfy Sir G. Clerk defended the propriety of the public. After considering the matter the arrangements now made in the dewell, he was convinced that the office partment, and contended that no alteramight be done away. There were two sets tion of the sort proposed could be anyof officers to two sets of barracks, and two thing but injurious. In his opinion, the sets of hospitals and two sets of accounts, department, as it was now constituted, one set of each being unnecessary. The was most economically managed, and conFinance Committee was convinced that sidering what its duties were, he did not no part of the management of the public think that the sum of 3,000l. a-year, now money required more immediate revision, paid for them, could be considered as any for the present system gave no security, great charge upon the public. The duties while it was confused and complicated. of the office had been increased of late In his opinion all payments whatever years, for by an order of the Lord High should be made by a distinct department, Admiral, the clothing department of the

for its conduct next Session, he feared
little good would come of it. It was given
in evidence before the Finance Committee,
that there were ten or twelve clerks in the
Paymaster's department unemployed which
was a reproach to the chancellor of the
Exchequer. Not one of them, he believed,
had yet been reduced; and therefore he
saw no other way of dealing with the ques-
tion but for the House to compel the Minis-
ters to make reductions by refusing to
grant them money. He saw no reason,
from what he had heard, to alter his opi-
nion on the subject of the office of Pay-
master.
master. As to the business of inspection,
there were now four Colonels-command-
ant and nine Lieutenant-colonels-com-
mandant saddled upon the country, at an
expense of 13,000l. a-year, which did not
seem to him at all necessary; but at any

marines was now added to its other labours. That alteration had only been effected a short time since, but during that short time it had proved to be a great public improvement. The marines had different pay and different allowances from the regular army, and great confusion would ensue if they were to be paid by the same department. He was convinced that the alteration proposed would create expense instead of saving money to the public. The hon. Member opposite had alluded to the General, Lieutenant-general, and Major-general of Marines, and had spoken as if these could be dispensed with. He begged to observe, in reply, that these offices were given as rewards to naval men who had served their country in a distinguished manner, and he was sure that the country would not grudge them these rewards. He would not consent to the al-rate, they might perform all the duties of teration, because the duties of the Paymaster of Marines were now well discharged, and the consolidation or distribution proposed by the hon. Member was not likely to be profitable.

Lord Howick observed, that the opposition made to the Amendment was founded on the assertion of the great labour imposed upon the Paymaster of the Marines, in discharge of that part of his duty which consisted of inspecting the marines when on shore. He could not think that objection well founded, or, if it were, it might, as it seemed to him, be easily removed. When at sea, the marines were under the same discipline and regulations as the navy. He could not understand why, when the marines were on shore at different parts of the kingdom, but especially at Portsmouth, where the greater part of the duty was performed, the inspecting officer of the neighbouring garrison could not perform the duty of inspecting the marine corps and the marine barracks. If that were done, and he saw no possible objection to it, the great point on which the defence of the office was now rested would be removed. He trusted that the hon. Member for Aberdeen would either move a resolution to consolidate the offices now, or one which should pledge the House to adopt some step of that kind in the early part of the next Session. Mr. Hume said, that his object was, to reduce the grant by one-half, and he proposed a vote which would have the effect of producing that end now, if at all. As to any resolution that pledged the House

inspection. As to the clothing, that might be transferred to the Ordnance. He was certain that no inconvenience would follow from this Motion being carried; and he should, therefore, persist in his intention of dividing the House upon it. The hon. Member then moved, as an Amendment, that the sum of 50,6961. be inserted in the grant instead of 52,1261.

Mr. Portman did not intend to trouble the House at any length, but could not refrain from saying that these offices were defended in a manner in which there was more of fallacy and sophistry than he had ever before heard, and which depended on those old and worn-out excuses that might be brought forward in support of any kind of abuse. He thought it necessary that the Committee should express their opinion strongly on the subject, for if not, the Government would not come down as they ought to do next Session, and make the further reductions which were yet absolutely required. He called, therefore, on the Committee to mark their sense of this vote, and in that manner to strengthen that portion of the Government which was really favourable to the reduction of the public burthens.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer protested against the doctrine which some Members seemed inclined to inculcate, that any particular vote of which they happened to disapprove showed the Government not to be sincere in their wish to diminish the public burthens. The question was, whether the business of the office now under discussion could be more

cheaply or efficiently performed? On his | Howick, Lord
side of the House they answered that
question in the negative; while, on the
other side, it was answered in the affirma-
tive-on consideration, at least, that the
business was transferred to other depart-
ments. The consolidation of business in
the manner recommended might be carried
too far. If it went beyond a certain ex-
tent, he did not think it would much con-
duce to the advancement of public eco-
nomy. As to the old and worn-out excuses
which the hon. Member had spoken of,
he would only observe, that it was im-
possible on such a subject as this to bring
forward anything but old and worn-out
arguments, especially after the discussions
which had recently taken place upon it.

He could not but think that the altera

tions proposed would rather complicate than simplify the business of these offices, and increase instead of diminishing their expense.

Lord Althorp could not conceive how the proposed distribution of duties could complicate the business of the office, when it was recollected that at this moment the

Paymaster of Marines was a Military Paymaster, an Inspector of Marines, and a contractor for their clothing, all at the same time, and that the alteration suggested was, to divide these "complicated duties among different departments. He should vote for the Amendment.

Mr. Bright should support the Amendment, for he saw no reason for keeping up such an expensive establishment for the superintendence of only 9,000 men.

The House then divided, when the numbers were-For the Amendment 90; Against it 130; Majority 40.

Jephson, C. D. O.
Killeen, Lord
Labouchere, H.
Lambert, T.
Lennard, T.
Lester, B.
Lloyd, Sir E. P.
Lumley, S.
Martin, J.
Maberley, J.
Macdonald, Sir J.
Marjoribanks, S.
Mildmay, P.
Monck, J. B.
Nugent, Lord
O'Connell, D.
O'Grady, Colonel
Osborne, Lord F.
Parnell, Sir II.
Orde, W.
Peachey, General
Phillimore, Dr.
Philips, G.
Ponsonby, hon. G.
Ponsonby, hon. F.
Portman, E. B.

On putting the Motion on the original Question,

Mr. Hume inquired to what purpose the grants for nautical inquiries had been applied?

Sir G. Clerk replied, that the principal expense under this head was caused by the experiments made under the control and direction of Sir G. Brisbane.

Mr. Portman said, he had had the intention of taking the sense of the House upon making certain deductions from the salaries of Officers in the Admiralty. His plan would be, to effect a deduction of fifteen per cent from the salaries of the higher officers, ten per cent from those of a lower class, and five per cent from the lowest. He thought it fair that those officers should not be the only persons to escape the effects of the change which had taken place in the currency; but as it was the intention of the hon. Baronet, the Member for Cumberland, to bring that subject under the notice of the House, he was induced to postpone the proposition for the present.

Vote agreed to.

Sir George Clerk then moved, that 32,0331. 1s. 6d. for the salaries of Officers and contingent expenses of the Navy Pay Office for the current year, be granted to his Majesty.

Mr. Vernon Smith addressed the Committee for the purpose of moving an Amendment. He was then anxious to do so, as