for any sum under 1007., unless upon special affidavit made before a judge, stating peculiar circumstances on which the judge should have a discretionary power. This would in itself greatly diminish the number of arrests. His reason for fixing the sum at 100l. was, that no man would be likely to leave the country to get rid of the obligation to pay such a sum, and yet it was necessary to fix a limit somewhere. It was well known that peculiar species of personal property, such as property in the funds-was not liable to be taken in execution, and persons in debt with such property might go off to another country and live there, receiving the dividends, secure from their creditors. He had fixed the sum at the amount stated, because so extending it would greatly check the number of arrests, while it would not be too violent a departure from the present state of the law; for though many persons might think it desirable that the law of arrest for debt should be wholly abolished, he did not think that the time was yet arrived when it could be done with safety. It would, in no very long time, be seen how this limitation of the law worked, and he had no doubt that the change would be received with satisfaction by the country. In making changes such as his Bill proposed, much must be done at first as a matter of compromise; and if we could not get all the good we wished at once, we should endeavour to get as much as was within our immediate reach. Many might think he had not gone far enough in some points, but he had endeavoured to achieve as much as he could. With respect to the Court of Great Sessions of Wales, other opportunities would occur for going into the subject more in detail. He would now confine himself to stating, that it was intended to abolish the jurisdiction of that court, and assimilate the practice of the Principality to that of England. The law was the same in the two countries-the difference lay in the mode of administration. As the Court of Great Sessions would be abolished, it would be necessary to send two judges on an additional circuit. On this subject, of making a change in the Welsh circuits, it was his wish to do every thing which would make it as agreeable as possible to the inhabitants of that part of the country. He had heard what had fallen from an hon. friend near him on this subject in the early part of the evening, and he could assure him, that it was his desire to meet the wishes of the people of Wales in this respect, as far as he could consistently with the principle of the alteration. It was hardly necessary for him to say that the granting of commissions of Oyer and Terminer and Gaol Delivery was the prerogative of the Crown, and that the Crown could grant such commissions to be held at any time or place, and could extend their jurisdiction over such places as it might deem proper. This matter, therefore, of the extent of circuits was a matter which he thought would be much better left for decision by his Majesty by the advice of his Privy Council, than be brought for discussion in that House; and the more particularly so, as the House could act on the subject only by legislating; and any measure they might introduce for fixing the time, place, or extent of a circuit, must be the subject of an Act of Parliament, which could be altered only by another Act. In the Privy Council, any regulations that might be made by the Crown, if they were found inconvenient, or required amendment, could be rectified in a more summary and speedy manner. He was aware, as had been stated by an hon. friend near him, that in the first Report of the Commissioners on this subject, they recommended a division of counties, in the arrangement respecting the circuits. To such an alteration he could not consent. He would not divide any county, English or Welsh; but whether each county could have a separate assizetown was a matter which must be left for consideration. It would be necessary in some cases to join counties in one assize, for otherwise the business of some would be so small, that it would not hold out sufficient inducement to men of eminence at the bar to attend them; and in fact it might be difficult to get a sufficient bar, unless a union of more counties than one was included in the same assize. But in such union the convenience of each county would be studied as much as possible in the selection of the place where the assize was to be held. The city of Chester would be a great object in making the new arrangements; and it would be a matter for consideration, whether much of the judicial business of the county of Lancaster, bordering on that city, and which was now transacted 50 miles off, might not with much greater convenience to the parties be despatched at Chester. In cases of union of more counties than one in an assize, it would be necessary that there should be only one sheriff; but in this there could be no practical inconvenience, for there would be a sub-sheriff for each county, by whom the usual business of the office would be transacted without interference. The plan might be extended to Wales which was acted on in the case of Cambridge and Huntingdon, where one sheriff acted for both. The Bill would also embrace regulations by which a jury of either county might try causes originating in the other, and this would be found a great convenience, and tend to the more perfect administration of justice; for such was the difficulty of getting a sufficient number of jurors to act in some counties, that causes were left for trial to a very few, who possibly might, in some instances, be biassed by local interests or feelings. It was also intended that the gaols in the counties should be considered in law as situate in each; and clauses would also be found regulating the mode in which the expense of Courthouse and other expenditure connected with the holding of an assize, would be apportioned between the counties joined, according to circumstances. This was the general outline of the measure which he meant to introduce, and though it might seem, at first glance, that it would require voluminous enactments, it would be found that the whole did not comprise more than a few pages. In framing the measure, he had endeavoured to avoid any violent change, or making any at all except in those points where change was expedient to carry the general principle of the measure into operation. It might, perhaps, have accorded more with certain popular notions, that when he proposed a change in the system of judicial administration, he should sweep away every thing at once. He had, however, limited himself to those alterations which were necessary, preserving, as much as possible, the ancient forms. He had little hesitation in saying, that the fifteen judges in this country would have more arduous duties to administer in causes of property than all those who presided over the administration of justice in France. It would not be uninstructive to put the House in possession of the means of comparing our institutions with those of France in reference to this important subject. The courts he would first mention of that country were those called the Tribunaux de Première Instance, in which the number of judges varied from three to eight, and one of them called the Juge d' Instruction drew up, organized, as it were, the case on which the other judges decided. From the Tribunaux de Première Instance a cause might be carried before one of the Cours Royales, of which there were twenty-six in the Departments, besides that at Paris. Above the Cours Royales was the Cour de Cassation, which, in fact, was a Court of Error, appointed to review all the proceedings, and observe that all the subordinate courts administered justice according to the strict forms of law. This Court had no less than forty-five judges, called Conseillers; one chief-president, and three-vice presidents, making in all forty-nine judges, besides a Procureur General, six Avocats Generaux, a Greffier, and four clerks, all of whom were appointed, and paid by the Government. The Cour Royale of Paris consisted of fifty-four judges, one chief president, and five vice-presidents, making in all sixty judges. In this Court also, there were attached Procureurs, Avocats, Greffiers, and other officers as well as to the Court of Cassation. Each of the Cours Royales, of which, as he had said, there were twenty-six in the provinces, had from twenty to forty judges; and taking the average at thirty, including that of Paris, the number of judges would be no less than eight hundred and ten; making, with those of the Court of Cassation, no less a number than eight hundred and fifty-nine judges paid by the Government. There were, moreover, the Juges de Paix, one of whom was placed in every commune. These, too, were exclusive of the Tribunaux de Première Instance. There were also two hundred and thirteen Tribunaux de Commerce, the judges of which were paid by the nation, the secretaries or registrars being the only officers paid by the Government. The hon. and learned Gentleman next enumerated the items of expenses attendant on each court, and calculated the aggregate at 11,265,465 francs, or 582,5361. English, whereas, the expense of administering justice in England was only 150,000l. in the sum total. He did not mean to cast any reflection on the French system, but he thought it would be found, on examination, that the number of causes, and the amount of property, decided by the English judges, were fully sex. equal to those decided by the Frenching so much of what he conceived an judges. It might, however, be supposed excellent institution, because some perthat the expense being so burthensome to sons turned it into ridicule. They were Government, the French suitors would on to be excused on account of their ignothat account pay less; but this was far rance of the vast benefits it contained. from being the case. The charge of a With respect to the present system of single cause in France, as he was informed administering justice in Wales, he would by M. Le Roi, an eminent French advocate, set aside his individual opinion for a moif it went through all its stages, would be, ment, and adduce that of very unsuspicious he need not enumerate the items,-140l., witnesses. That evidence was to be found which he would undertake to say, would in the report of the Chamber of Commerce cover the expenses of ten causes of a in Bristol, and the parties concerned had similar description in London and Middle- never thought of anticipating that their One or two causes here might cost sentiments, so expressed, would have ever 2001. or 300l., but the average of costs been brought forward on an occasion like for each cause was not 1401. The cost the present. The report alluded to repreof French law proceedings would appear sented that those who might be creditors still greater if the parties there had to pay for debts contracted in Wales to the amount fees to the officers of the court, as they of 501. were obliged to have recourse to had in England; but in France they were Welsh courts alone for enforcing their paid out of the general taxes. He would claims, but that the uncertainty, the risk, further add, that the expense of a suit in and the difficulties attendant on such a the Tribunaux de Première Instance was mode of procedure, owing to the inefficient about 800 francs; to carry it through a operation, and defective constitution of Cour Royale, it would cost 1000 francs those courts, induced creditors very often more; and if it went into the Cour de to relinquish their debts, as a less evil Cassation the additional expense would than seeking to recover them, which caused be 1700 francs, making in all 1407.,which, very great loss and inconvenience to the considering the difference in the value of trading interests of the city of Bristol. money in the two countries, was, he con- The existing system of Welsh judicature sidered, a very large sum. From these he conceived to be erroneous and imperfacts he inferred, that the law costs in fect. It was a principle there, that every France at least equalled, if they were not man was supposed to be in court, which much greater than, those occasioned by not being generally the case, it was necesthe administration of justice in England. sary to apply to the Courts of Equity to The proceedings, moreover, were more stay proceedings. The judges had lately, prolix, and perhaps he might add, more however, required that fifteen days' notice unsatisfactory than our own, in conse of action before the assizes should be given quence of law questions being mixed up to all persons against whom an action. with the facts of the case, as they always was contemplated. But, up to that time, were in French courts of justice. It was cases were hurried on without giving any a great advantage, in his opinion, resulting adequate time for preparation, and consefrom the trial by jury in this country, that quently operated unjustly to the prejudice it determined the merits of a case by of the defendant. The Report of the Comcoming to a decision on the facts separate missioners had stated, that the expenses and distinctly from the law which might of Welsh causes in every stage considerarise out of them. He would take that ably exceeded those of causes in England. opportunity of saying, in vindication of This also was a grievance which he inthat part of the English system which had tended to remove, by his Bill, if the House been sometimes censured, because its would allow him to bring it in. The hon. working was not understood, that there and learned Gentleman concluded by never was a happier expedient to facilitate moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the administration of justice, than that of "the more effectual Administration of trial by jury. The separation made by Justice in England and in the Principality that institution, in all cases, of the facts of Wales." from the law, give to the rules of our law a greater certainty than was to be found in those of any other country. He was happy to have that opportunity of say Mr. O'Connell said, he was quite willing to give the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) credit for his intention to ameliorate our law, but he disclaimed having heard a himself favourable to the introduction of such courts, with authority to decide cases of small debt; but why, when the principle was acknowledged, should they not be extended to large debts as well? This advantage Wales had enjoyed hitherto ; but it was about to be deprived of it by the Bill in contemplation. They would henceforward be constrained to make application in London before any step whatever could be taken. An American captain might owe a debt to an inhabitant, and before the writ could arrive from the metropolis would most probably pay his debt (according to the sea phrase) by the foretopsail. They must now travel for justice, whether it be in a law case or an equity case, for it was no longer to be extended to them as heretofore at home. By the time about 400 Welsh cases tacked to the tail of the list in Chancery were disposed of, he supposed successive generations of those interested would have passed into the grave. The local tribunals were also to be annihilated. learned Gentleman, in adverting to France, might have recollected that justice was there to be had at every man's door; and in this respect the French enjoyed a superiority over ourselves, since they travelled for justice for the first time when they themselves made an appeal to the Cour Royale. What consolation was it to us if they were charged exorbitantly for justice? Did their misfortunes alleviate our own? single word which induced him to believe that the present change would be in any respect an amendment. He supposed that the object kept in view, in every change ought to be, to make law cheap, expeditious, and certain; but this measure would leave every process as tardy, uncertain, and costly as before. Convenient it certainly would be, both to judges and barristers in great practice, whom it would enable to recreate and refresh themselves; but he was yet to learn that the benefits resulting from this boasted reform would extend to the public. They would have no additional day consumed in their service, nor would the suitors find themselves placed in a more advantageous position for obtaining justice or redress. The arrangement would give a resting-place to many learned gentlemen overburthened with briefs; but it would diminish the number of days devoted to the public service. This was, he thought wrong: he would have no Terms at all: he would have the courts always sitting, for as injustice never slept, so ought justice never to slumber. A fifth judge, too, was to be added to those who already presided in the Exchequer; but for what purpose? Why, in order to help them to do nothing. There was, nevertheless, one part of the Bill which he could not but approve of, that which related to the prevention of arrests for sums under 1007. According to the present state of the law, if the merest wretch chose to swear a debt of 100,000l. against any individual, not a Member of either House of Parliament, an arrest and imprisonment of the party designated would be the immediate consequence. Not long ago, a woman in Dublin, who could neither read nor write, had made oath to a debt amounting to 60,0007., which she alleged to be due to her from a respectable gentleman, and her affidavit was acted on forthwith. Special pleading also was a subject which. he wished to see reformed in all its parts, as it only increased the expense of coming at the truth, and prevented the parties from coming into the presence of the judge until their resources were previously exhausted. They then often settled matters by arbitration, which they might have done in the outset but for this precious system of special pleading. They ought likewise to give every county its local court, and facilitate the administration of justice at every man's door. The Secretary for the Home Department had expressed The hon. and But the hon. and learned Gentleman had forgotten that the expense he had described was for thirty-two millions of people, while the expense here was incurred for twelve. The hon. and learned Gentleman had also omitted all mention of fees when he stated the expense of our courts. He had not enumerated all the expenses attendant on the constitution of our courts when he mentioned 150,0007. as the sum total, which he could very easily make appear, if the late hour would permit. In brief, he would for his own part consent to cashier half our army, and get rid of half our colonies, if by so doing we could accelerate and cheapen the administration of justice. Sir J. Owen protested against the measure from a conviction that, by the abolition of local judicature, the costs of law would be more than doubled to the inhabitants of Wales. He was confident that Government would not so far disregard the feelings of the people as to suffer this Bill to go into a committee before the Easter holydays. Mr. Wilbraham had no doubt but it would prove highly advantageous to that part of the country to which he personally belonged. He wished to thank the hon. and learned Member for the bill. Mr. C. W. Wynn was of opinion, that the annihilation of the local judicature would confer an important benefit on the Principality; and he was led to form this conclusion after an attentive consideration of the subject, confirmed by his own individual experience of the practice in these courts themselves. There was, to a certain degree, disadvantage in every change, but here the good counterbalanced the evil. He hoped, however, that the Bill would not be allowed to go into a committee before the assizes, in order to give time for examination of its merits. The Solicitor General, in reply to the hon. and learned Member for Clare, stated that it was a part of the measure in question, so to apportion the business as to provide that the Court of Exchequer should for the future do a fair and reasonable share of the work of the country. It sounded well to propose that they should bring justice to every man's door, but in practical operation it might not be so convenient. The local magistracy would become mixed up with the interests of families, and it was hardly possible to avoid partiality when the same gentlemen were sent again and again to administer justice amidst the same local associations. Mr. O'Connell explained, that he had not desired that local tribunals should be composed of persons selected from their respective neighbourhoods. Mr. Jones defended the character of the Welsh judges, and observed, that several of the most distinguished ornaments of the judicial bench had previously filled the office of Welsh judge. Whether England would be content with having three additional judges when those at present existing were not all employed, he did not pretend to say, but it was certainly hard that the interests of Wales should be made the ladder by which ambitious barristers were to climb to such preferment as three addi- | tional seats on the bench must necessarily induce. It was admitted on all hands that the Welsh were attached to their present institutions; and he could not bring forward a better proof of their feelings, than the fact that the inhabitants VOL. XXIII. of Denbigh sent in a petition against this Bill, although the potent family of the Wynns had mustered all their influence at the meeting in that town, for the purpose of opposing its being carried. As to the comparison of expense, made by the hon. and learned Gentleman, between France and England, that was nothing to the purpose; for if the French chose to have expensive law, was that to justify us in submitting to great inconvenience? But even in making that comparison the hon and learned Member had not been accurate. He had omitted Scotland and Ireland, and the local jurisdictions of many stipendiary magistrates. The Bill was a benefit forced on the people of Wales against their inclinations. All the petitions on the subject, except one, were against the measure. He could not imagine what had made the Ministers interfere in the business, for the whole population of the Principality, except a few rich people, to whom it was of no consequence where they got justice, were averse from it. The learned Solicitor General seemed to think that a judge in the neighbourhood was an evil, and he would probably think a judgment delivered at Moscow even better for the people of Wales than one delivered in London. The learned Gentleman seemed to have forgot that there were such things as juries, and deriving all his notions from the courts of equity, he seemed to suppose that every document concerning a cause might be sent up in a box by the coach from Wales. But for the eulogium passed by the Attorney General on juries, he should have been afraid that the next step would have been to abolish them, but he hoped the poor Welshmen would long be allowed to preserve that part of their ancient institutions. Mr. C. W. Wynn, in explanation, stated, that the Denbigh meeting was not unanimous, and that the measure was opposed by the inhabitants in consequence of their expectation that their interests would be injured should the assizes be occasionally removed. Sir Christopher Cole said, he saw no reason why Wales should have a separate judicial system any more than Yorkshire. He was glad that the Ministers had taken the matter in hand, and he hoped that they would successfully carry it through. Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, he regretted that the Bill did not provide some remedy for the inequality of business in the dif Ꭰ |