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year 1828, when a schism, to the circum- adhere closely to the wishes of Parliament? stances of which he could never refer The argument of his right hon. friend (Mr. without regret, occurred between the mem- | Huskisson) had been, that the wishes of bers of the Government, his right hon. Parliament had been expressed, in 1826, friend Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald had been contrary to the views of Government, and appointed President of the Board of Trade that Ministers, on the recent occasion, and Treasurer of the Navy. Lord Melville ought to have deferred to the Resolution and his hon. friend behind him (Sir G. of the House. No doubt, in a matter of Cockburn) protested against that joint indifference, such should have been the nomination, and they had nothing in view course; but if it were found that the but the efficiency of the sewice, which health of a valuable and able public serthey apprehended would then be injured: vant had yielded to the pressure of the they contended that the two places should duties of both offices, and if, by departing not be united in the same person; and the from that course, 1,0001. a-year in the question was considered at the time with first instance, and ultimately, 2,2001. areference to what had passed in the year year could be saved to the public, with a 1826, when the House had overruled the relinquishment, besides, of patronage, was proposal of Government that these offices it consistent with the principles of comshould be disunited. Ministers, in 1828, mon justice to visit Government with a thought it right to defer to the sense of vote of censure and condemnation? MinisParliament, and Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald was ters had thought that they might review therefore called upon to discharge the the circumstances of the appointment, and duties of both situations. So matters they had decided that the best arrangecontinued, until the health of Mr. Fitz- ment was not to make the deputy pringerald broke down under the weight of his cipal, but to secure to a great national united duties and anxieties, and it then establishment the services of a public man was required of Ministers to consider of ability, while, at the same time, his what arrangements could be made to salary was reduced. The hon. Member provide a substitute. To the abilities for Montrose had asked how the Treasurer and aptitude for business of Mr. Fitz- of the Navy could discharge his official gerald he had borne testimony on a duties, be present in his place in Parliaformer occasion, and it was not necessary ment, and attend also as a Member of the to repeat it now; but during the whole Wexford Committee? He (Mr. Peel) summer his health had suffered from his wished to know how the same man could laborious attendance on Parliament, and be Treasurer of the Navy, President of the on the duties of his office, till at length it Board of Trade, be present in his place in entirely failed, and when he retired Minis- | Parliament, and attend also on the Wexters did certainly think that the time had ford Committee? Surely, if three were arrived when they might safely depart incompatible, à fortiori, four must be infrom what appeared to have been the incompatible also, according to the very tention of the House--provided, at the shewing of the hon. Gentleman. But besame time, a saving of the public money fore the House became parties to this vote could be effected. If they had wished to of condemnation, he implored it to attend make out a specious case, and not to trust to the opinion it had expressed by its to the good sense and feeling of Parlia- Committee. From the year 1788 to the ment in judging of their intentions, they present time, various inquiries had been might have filled up the office of Master instituted into the office of Treasurer of of the Mint, with a salary of 3,0001. a the Navy, and no Committee had yet ever year — have appointed a Treasurer of suggested the fitness of abolishing the the Navy, as the office still existed, and office. Several had complained that the have united the situations of President of duties were performed by deputy; and the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the hence, an opinion was implied that, for Navy, with the emoluments which pre- the sake of the public service, it ought to viously belonged to those united offices. be made a substantive and efficient apHad that course been pursued, not a word pointment. Upon this point, he would of objection would have been uttered ; and not go farther back than the Finance were not Ministers at liberty to save the Committee of 1817, of which the President public 2,2001. a-year if they could, al- of the Royal Society (Mr. D. Gilbert) had though they did not, in other respects, I consented to act as Chairman. What was the Report of that Committee? Before How happy could I be with either" Ministers filled up the post, they had re- But in 1826, when doubly burthened, he ferred to all the Reports; and if they had added, like the same gallant captain, erred, they had erred with authorities in another line to his songtheir favour, which, in mere justice, would

“ Were t'other dear charmer away;” prevent Parliament from joining in a vote for, although he now argued that another of censure and condemnation. The Re- appointment ought to be added to that of port of the Finance Committee of 1817 Treasurer of the Navy, in his speech on was, that the salary of the Treasurer of the 7th April 1826 he contended that the the Navy was much too large. A reduc- duties were more important than they were tion was therefore recommended, and it generally supposed, and that they could was proposed that the office and its salary not be properly executed by an individual should be placed upon the same footing

Trade. as that of the Paymaster of the Forces. At

Mr. Huskisson then said, * that date, the salary was 4,0001. a

“ He also was relieved from the neces

a-year; and the Committee added, that it was not sity of saying any thing relative to what for them to determine whether it should some Gentlemen called an useless office, be lowered to 3,0001. a-year, or to any

the Treasurership of the Navy. After what other sum. Thus it was evident, that had been stated by his right hon. friend Ministers had not acted in precise concur

near him, and by the right hon. Genrence with the suggestion of the Commit

tleman opposite, it was scarcely netee, because they had gone beyond it, and cessary to add, that the business of that had lowered the emolument of the office department had very considerably inof Treasurer of the Navy below 3,0001. creased, as well as the importance of the a-year. They had reduced it to 2,0001. duties connected with it, since the transfer a-year, and had put it precisely on the to it of the management of seamen's wills. footing of the Paymaster of the Forces. It was quite erroneous to suppose that the If, after this recommendation, and this business of that office was a mere matter conduct founded upon it, Parliament were

of paying money. So far from that, the to turn round at once, and pass a vote of Treasurer of the Navy was called on to censure upon Ministers, he must say, that

to exercise his discretion in the instance

of reports of Committees, instead of being every

demand made on him for money. beacons to guide, would be converted into He was obliged to sift the grounds of each false lights to delude. The value of claim, and to decide on the merits of the Reports would be at an end—“ Bring me applicant. With so many branches of no more Reports--let them Ay all”- public duty to be performed, the Bank since it would be far safer for Ministers to could not be expected to execute them, or act on their own responsibility and dis- to exercise any discretion on the different cretion than on the recommendations of cases submitted to the consideration of committees. In filling up the recent va

whoever might be placed in the superincancy they had adopted'the very advice tendence of that department. Whether of their political opponents, and they felt from his not having that capacity of mind satisfied that it was utterly impossible for which the discharge of such duties unmen on any side of the House to object to doubtedly required, or from whatever

other the arrangement. And here, he must say,


he confessed he did feel conalthough he had had some reason to be siderable hardship arising out of the union prepared for opposition from his right hon. of the two offices of President of the friend (Mr. Huskisson), he was, neverthe Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy. less, utterly astonished by his speech. He He felt not only the difficulty attendant bad referred to the Nestor of the Cabinet upon a due discharge of the duties of both, (Lord Bathurst), and to the example of but the anxiety which proceeded from the Mr. Rose in 1807, observing, that he him- great pecuniary responsibility which atself was the only man in the House who tached to one of those offices; the weight had held the united offices of President of of which was, in no inconsiderable de the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the gree, augmented by the duties arising Navy: he therefore hoped that the House from the frequent complaints from the would confide in his authority. At pre

Navy-office, the Victualling-office, and sent, his right hon. friend held neither of other departments of the public service fice, and he might say with Macheath- • See Llansard's Parl. Debates, vol. xv. p. 115, &c. VOL. XXIII.



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connected with it. He declared that, | pursued saved more than that sum to the united as those offices were in him, he public. He did not know that he could could not satisfy his mind that the duties say more on this subject, for he would not of the Treasurership of the Navy were, so enter into the details, resting confidently far as he was concerned, duly and ade- upon the justice and equity of the case to quately performed.”

* produce their due impression upon the “In answer to what had fallen from House, without any bias from party feelthe right hon. Gentleman, with reference ings or personal resentments. He would to whether or not he had time enough to put it to all who heard him, whether the discharge the duties of both employments, general conduct of the present Governhe certainly could not reply that he had ment--that of the Duke of Wellingtonnot time enough; but he could most was such as to justify a vote of censure. truly declare, that to whatever cause it He was sure that the House, sitting as might be owing, he was not able to do the judges, would not only consider the wishes duties of both offices with that satisfaction of the hon, mover, but the intentions and to his own feelings with which he thought the acts of the Government. The great every public duty ought to be performed. advocate for economy (the hon. Member Beyond question, the country was fully for Montrose), to whose motives posterity entitled to his best services, and to all his would do justice, however annoying and services; but so long as he remained un- persevering his opposition, had repeatedly able to divest himself of the feelings to acknowledged, that, comparing the present which he had adverted, he was convinced Cabinet with any that had preceded it, he that it was any thing rather than a public thought that it had evinced a more sinservice to continue in possession of both cere desire than any other to spare the puboffices without being able adequately to lic purse. It did not, indeed, go as far as discharge the duties attached to them.” the hon. Member wished; but still he had

“ The right hon. Gentle felt bound, in justice, to admit, that it had man opposite had told the Committee, gone a great way. The hon. Baronet (Sir that when he held that office he contrived J. Graham) had urged that it was necesto do other duties of a public nature. sary to reduce this office, in order to lessen Doubtless, a man of his powers and dili- the number of that band of pensioners gence was capable of holding such an who were called upon, on every occasion, employment with advantage to the publie, to overwhelm the sense of the independand also to discharge other duties of im- ent portion of the House. The hon. portance; but this could not be accepted Baronet and the hon. Member for Westas a proof that the burthensome duties at minster (Mr. Hobhouse) were at issue, in the Board of Trade were compatible with some sort, upon this point, as the latter those at the Navy-office. The further had said, in a recent debate, that he preconsideration of this question he would ferred a bad strong Government to a good now leave in the hands of the House, weak one. It became important, thereso far as he was personally concerned.” fore, to consider the present amount of This opinion, which his right hon. friend Government influence, compared with the then gave, of the duties of the two offices, better periods of our history, to which the was, in his viewof the matter, a correct one, hon, Baronet had referred with such

apand it had been confirmed by the failure of parent satisfaction. Some time since rethe health of Mr. Fitzgerald; and Ministers turns were called for and laid on the Table were, therefore, led to believe that the plan showing the number of Members of Parthey had recently adopted was advisable, liament who held office, place, or pension not only on the score of public economy, in the first Parliament of George Ist; a but because the duties of the office could similar return was made for the first Parnot otherwise be efficiently discharged, liament of George 2nd; and a third reThe Presidency of the Board of Trade had turn of the Members of Parliament who been united with the Mastership of the held offices at the pleasure of the Crown, Mint, because the right hon. Gentleman or other places, in the first Parliament of who occupied those two places was, at George 4th. In the first Parliament of least, not new to either of them. It ought George Ist, instead of the fifty or sixty not to be forgotten that the proposal of placemen now in the House, they had 271 1826 was to add 2,0001. a-year to the pub- Members of Parliament holding situalic burthens, while the plan Ministers had tions at the pleasure of the Crown. In the first Parliament of George 2nd, theresistent with the interests of the public were 257 Members also holding offices service; and the effect of his having so at the pleasure of the Crown. This was long and so assiduously directed his ata much greater number than at present. tention to that subject was, that from that Perhaps it would be said that those offices time to the present it had not been in his were so skilfully divided, that a few situa- power to bestow any office of sufficient tions were spread over a numerous body value to be worth the acceptance of any of placemen. What, however, was the person holding the rank of a gentleman. fact? So far from a few offices being The fact was, that so limited was the made to serve a great number of holders, number of offices now in the gift of Gothe skill was exercised in accumulating vernment, that the patronage of the Crown upon the heads of individuals a number of might be considered as mortgaged for offices, which, by persons less adroit and several years to come. He would ask, able than were the dispensers of Crown had the Duke of Wellington supported patronage in those days, would have been his government by a prostituted or lavish considered utterly incompatible. At the expenditure ? On the contrary, it might, time that there were 271 servants of the with perfect truth, be said, that, with very Crown, holding their situations during few exceptions indeed, he had not conpleasure, sitting in that House, Mr. ferred any civil distinction since he came Craggs was, by the singular dexterity into office. Other Governments precedof that period, enabled to hold the offices ing his, might have found it necessary to of Vice-Treasurer of Ireland, Lord Warden avail themselves of the prerogative of the of the Stannaries, Comptroller of the Crown, even to an extent that might have Household and Governor of St. Paul's. been called a lavish expenditure of public Another Member of the Parliament was honours. The Duke of Wellington had Secretary of State, Secretary at War, in no instance availed himself of that Clerk of Deliveries to the Ordnance, branch of the royal prerogative, of the and a Lord of Trade. A third Member exercise of which former Administrations was a Secretary of State, Comptroller had been so lavish. Upon inquiry it would of the Household, a Lord of the Trea- be found, that in no one case bad he consury, and Ambassador to Spain. The ferred any civil honours since his accespresent number of Members in that House sion to office. In the days of Mr. Pitt, was 658; the number at the time of perhaps, a different course might have which he was speaking, was 558—there been found necessary. But he was misthen existed an Irish Parliament, and it taken in saying in no one instance;" was pretty generally acknowledged that there were some few exceptions--one or that body possessed an adequate supply of two perhaps--but they were not cases in parliamentary offices. It was quite clear, which any influence could be exercised therefore, in comparing the influence of over that House. His noble friend had, the Crown at present with those days of with these exceptions, never felt it neceswhig constitutional purity, that the ba- sary to recommend the exercise of the lance was greatly in favour of the present prerogative of the Crown in that respect; time. The hon. Baronet by whom the not that he undervalued that patronage, Motion was made contended for the re- but that he had not found it necessary for duction of the influence of the Crown by the purposes of Government as it was the reduction of the office against which in former Administrations. The present his speech was directed; but he thought Administration looked for support to public it had been made pretty well manifest opinion, and they felt that, relying upon that the influence of the Crown was that, and steadily pursuing that course undergoing a most rapid reduction. With- which they considered most likely to deout dwelling further upon those topics, he serve it, the influence of such patronage should call upon the House to review the might be dispensed with. Greatly indeed general conduct of the Duke of Welling- should he be disappointed if the vote of ton's Government. His hon. friend near that evening should convince him that him, the Secretary to the Treasury, stated they were mistaken in such reliance, and not long since, that during the summer that they required such influence. The the noble Duke at the head of his Ma- House would no doubt exercise its own jesty's Government had been occupied in discretion as to the Motion before it, and effecting every possible reduction con- if, after what the Ministers had already


done, it should think proper to adopt the O'Connell, D. Wall, C. B. proposition of the hon. Baronet, they Ord, W.

Warburton, II. would bow with submission, but they would

Palmerston, Lord Warrender, Sir G. still have the satisfaction of thinking that

Parnell, Sir H. Webb, Colonel E.

Phillips, G. R. Wilson, Sir R. they had not deserved the censure. He Phillips, Sir G. Wilbraham, G. must observe, however, that if the House Power, R.

Westenra, hon, H. passed a censure on the Ministers who Rice, T. S.

Wood, Ald. had done most in the



economy and Robarts, A. W. Wood, C. retrenchment, it would hold out to their Robinson, Sir G. Wrottesley, Sir J. successors the folly of relying on public

Rumbold, C. E. Whitbread, W. opinion, in lieu of that patronage which Rowley, Sir W. Bart. Graham, Sir J.

Russell, Lord J.

TELLERS. other administrations had so profusely Rickford, w. Howick, Lord exercised.

Sefton, Lord

PAIRED OFr. Sir George Warrender said, that he would Stanley, E. G. Sykes, D. support the Motion, because he considered | Scott, hon. W. H. Denison, W.J. it acting up to the resolution lately Thomson, C, P. Slaney, R. adopted by the House.

Townshend, Lord C. Liddell, hon. II. Mr. Labouchere said, that after having Uxbridge, Lord

Trant, W. H.

Du Cane, P. heard the whole case, he could not support Vyvyan, Sir R.

Winnington, Sir T.

Lambert, Colonel a motion which implied a censure upon Ministers who, he admitted, had done much LONDON AND EDINBURGH Roads. ] in the way of reduction ; at the same time On the Motion of Lord Viscount Morpeth, he admitted that a more economical course a Select Committee was appointed to inmight be adopted. They were going on in quire into the state of the Roads between extravagance which ought to be checked, London and Edinburgh, and London and and he would state his opinions on the sub- Portpatrick. ject when they came to discuss the Navy Estimates. The House then divided, when there

HOUSE OF LORDS. appeared ; -- For the Resolution 90;

Monday, March 15. against it 188.-Majority 98.

MINUTES.) Petitions praying that the Trade with India

might be opened were presented-by Lord KINNOUL, from List of the Minority.

the Corporation of Perth :-By the Earlof Rosslyn, from the Chamber of Commerce of Kirkaldy, and from the Town

and Council of Kirkaldy :-By Earl STAN HOPE, from the Astley, Sir J. Ebrington, Lord

Trinity-House of Kingston-upon-Hull:-By the Marquis Baring, Sir T. Fazakerley, J. N. of Bute, from the Corporation of Greenock :---By the MarBernal, R. Fane, J.

quis of LANSDOWN, from the Chamber of Commerce of Bentinck, Lord G. Fyler, T. B.

Bristol:----And by the Earl of Dudley, from certain persons

in Staffordshire and Worcestershire. Complaining of the Birch, J. Gordon, R.

Distress of the Country, and praying for Reduction of TaxaBrownlow, C. Grant, R.

tion, were presented by the Earl of HardwICKE, from Burdett, Sir F. Harvey, D. W.

the occupiers and owners of land in the county of Cambridge, Bright, H. Ileron, Sir R.

and from the hundred of Ely:-By Lord King, from a Buxton, J.J. Ileneage, G. F.

parish in Gloucestershire:-By Earl STANHOPE, from the Burrell, Sir C. Hobhouse, J. C.

Clergymen, Freeholders, and Inhabitants of Kingston-upon

Hull:--By Earl BEAUCHAMP, from the Grand Jury of WorBuck, L. W. lume, J.

cester :-And by the Marquis of LANSDOWN, from the InCave, R. O.

Huskisson, rt. hon. W. habitants of the county of Ross. Against the Payment of Cavendish, W.

Jephson, C. D. 0. wages in Goods were presented-by the Duke of WELLINGColborne, R. Keck, G.

TON, from a place in Gloucestershire:-And by the Earl of Clifton, Lord Kemp, T. R.

DUDLEY, from Wolverhampton, from Dudley, and from

the neighbourhood of the same place: -Against the PunishCarew, R. King, hon. General

ment of Death in certain cases, by Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE, Carter, J. Lamb, hon. G.

from a place in Cornwall :-By the Duke of WELLINGTON, Calvert, C. Lennard, T. B.

from the town and neighbourhood of Southampton:-- And Cavendish, H. Lester, B.

by the Marquis of LANSDOWN from the Quakers of Ireland.

Praying for an alteration of the Corn Laws:-By Lord Kino, Davenport, E. D. Littleton, E.

from the inhabitants of Uley:- Against the Truck System Dawson, A. Lygon, hon. Colonel

by the Duke of Wellington, from the inhabitants of Dawson, E. J. Maberly, S.

Stroud. Praying for the removal of the Duty on Coals, by Dundas, hon, T. Martin, J.

the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, from Galway:-And praying Dundas, lon. G. Marshall, w.

for the repeal of the Subletting Act, by the Marquis of Dundas, Sir R. A.

LONDONDERRY, from the inhabitants of Belfast.
Morpeth, Lord

The Transfer of Aids Bill, the Exchequer-Bills (12,000,0001.) Duncombe, hon. W. M‘Donald, Sir J. Bart.

Bill, and the Jersey and Guernsey Poor Bill, went through Dick, H. Marryat, J.

Committees, and were Reported. Euston, Lord

Malcolm, N. Encombe, Lord Macqueen, T.

COAL TRADE.] The Marquis of Lon

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