derman and the tradesmen's system; for when they were putting enormous profits in their pockets, they contributed no part to the public emergencies. He agreed with the hon. Alderman, that much of the present embarrassment originated in the alterations in the currency, but not to the extent imputed by the hon. Alderman; but he certainly admitted there were times, and this was a crisis, which strongly reminded every rational mind of the imperative necessity of adopting the most rigid economy and retrenchment. So far he agreed with the petition, but he thought that neither the petitioners nor the hon. Alderman had substantiated their averments against free trade. could be enforced against the smuggler and any attempt to raise them would only encourage smuggling. The Government had not the power to regulate prices, and either there must be an approximation in prices and duties in this country, to those of other countries, or the whole trade of the country would be carried on by the smuggler. Government had been compelled to resort to what the hon. Alderman called the free trade system. If, therefore, the Government should profit by our imports, and the consumer have them at a reasonable price, and a demand be kept up for our exports, there must be an approximation to free trade duties. On the question that the Petition be brought up Mr. Robinson said, that he believed it to be impossible for the present system to Mr. Alderman Waithman said, he felt go on without such a reduction of taxes as considerable surprise at the observations of would raise the wages of labour and the the hon. Member for Montrose, upon the profit on capital. He had no doubt the petition he had had the honour to present, opinion which he had stated would be especially as in presenting it he had not enforced upon the attention of ministers and tered into any arguments upon the matters it the legislature. The hon. Member for contained, but merely stated its allegations Montrose had endeavoured to maintain and among others, those respecting what that no actual decrease had taken place was erroneously called free trade; which in the value of our exports, inasmuch as seemed to have aroused the hon. Member's a greater reduction had taken place as to feelings. Whatever credit he might give to the cost of the raw materials, which we his hon. friend for his public exertions, and exported. But he would ask the hon. Mem- however he might yield to him in other ber, whether he for one would maintain matters, he could not on this subject, and that the price of exports was a criterion he must say, that his hon. friend seemed of the real condition of a country, at least, to understand very little of the principles of the profits of the exporter. He could of trade, and to be bewildered with theories speak from experience, and say it was not; of political economy. for he had exported commodities which been connected with trade forty-two years, had cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, and having been in the daily intercourse on which he had not received more than with several of the most intelligent persons sixty per cent of the value in return. In in the greatest trading community in the fact, parties were compelled to export. kingdom, it could not be presumption in The manufacturers were compelled to him in claiming to understand such subkeep their machinery in motion, and pro-jects as well as his hon. friend, indeed it ducing more than was wanted at home, they were compelled to export. Formerly, the English merchant only exported on order, now he exported on the chance of finding a market. Mr. Maberly contended, in opposition to those who condemned free trade, that since its principles had been acted upon, our exports and imports had annually increased; that the commercial interest had been extending their dealings, and, as he took it, their profits. It was now an established maxim, that high duties acted only as a bounty upon smuggling, and so far to the injury of the revenue. The duties now levied were the maximum which Having himself, would be highly reproachful to him were it otherwise with respect to the reiterated assertions, that the prosperity of our foreign trade was to be estimated by the quantity of goods exported and not by the value of those goods, however such assertions might pass in that House, they were so manifestly absurd, as to excite the laughter of every man acquainted with business. According to the wild theories of the political philosophers of the present day, the more of our labour we gave away to foreigners the better it was for the country. He was a friend to free trade, properly so called, he was a friend to trade upon equal terms, but in this manufactur ing country we had only our labour to give | of the advantages of foreign trade, still it in exchange for the commodities of other formed but a small part compared with the countries, and the raw material consti- home trade; the whole annual exports tuted but a small portion of the value of were about thirty six millions, if they commodities. There was at present a great were all profit the sum would go but a depression in the price of labour; that little way in paying our national expenses. was the great subject of complaint, and He was surprised to hear the observations labour, in all the articles of consumption, of the hon. Member for Abingdon, who was taxed seventy-five per cent, which ought to know better; and if the hon. was, in fact, a tax on raw material, for the Gentleman maintained that quantity and labour, with the tax upon it, must be not value was to be the criterion of paid for by the price of the manufactured the prosperity of trade, he would ask them articles, could that be called free trade, or where they would stop. The value of could there be any reciprocity when we exports had declined nine millions a year, admitted foreign manufactures at a duty of or about one-fifth on the average of thirty per cent, while our own labour paid several years; now if this were advantaseventy-five; when other nations would geous, if it were a mark of prosperity, not admit our manufactures in return, when the value of our exports fell off one and our own labourers could not find fifth, we should be still more prosperous employment. He had stated that there had if they declined one half, or even two been a fall of sixty-three per cent in the thirds and he would again ask, where they price of commodities since the peace; would stop. Would any merchant who the hon. Gentleman said, that traders had exported twenty thousand pieces of an had advantages to the same extent during article, for 20,000l. think it more advanthe war, but the hon. Gentleman must tageous to export twenty-five thousand know that the rise, during war, was in con- pieces and receive only 15,000l. but that sequence of continued taxation, during a was precisely the proposition those philoperiod of thirty years from which rise they sophers maintain. The whole assertion could gain no advantage, and by which was too absurd to be reasoned upon. But alone taxation could be supported. What he would deny that we could not comthe petitioners complained of was, that by pete with foreigners. He believed that pernicious legislative measures, there had if our goods were twenty-five per cent been a rapid fall in the value of property, higher, we should export an equal, if not while the taxes were undiminished; and greater amount; for we brought the foreign that they could not sustain the same bur- markets down, as well as our own, by the thens out of diminished means. The fall abstraction of gold from the continent by since the change in the currency was forty the currency bill, and our impolitic meaper cent; against this few men could stand; sures respecting trade; and the compein numerous instances the whole capital tition in foreign markets was a competihad been annihilated which had been by tion amongst the sellers of our own goods years of labour and industry accumulating. much oftener than a competition of our No less than 1,600 bankruptcies had goods against those of foreigners. He taken place in the last year; how many had read many of the publications upon partners, how many wives and children, political economy, but he confessed with might have been involved in their ruin, mak- little advantage, and scarcely two of them ing together probably some thousands, he agreed. When Mr. Ricardo stated that could not say, but adding to those the still the depreciation, by adopting our metallic greater list of insolvencies, and the numer- standard of currency, would be three or ous compositions with creditors, it was evi- four per cent, and when he found the dedent what scenes of trying distress must preciation actually was forty per cent, he be witnessed in every part of the counthrew Mr. Ricardo aside. When some try. There was another delusion which of these political economists maintained, seemed to have run away with political that absenteeism was no evil; that it was economists. They were for reducing la- the same thing whether the Irish landlord bour, and sacrificing our internal trade, spent 5,000l. a year in Dublin or in Engby far the greatest and most valuable, land-that it was the same thing whether under a notion that we could increase persons who were receiving five millions our foreign trade, and better compete a year out of the taxes at home, expended with other countries. Sensible as he was the money in Paris or in London, he would ask what rational man could attend I tude had they, so little influence did we to them; and were not, he would ask, possess, that although we admitted their common sense and common experience, produce and manufactures, we could not safer guides. It had also been main- prevail upon them to take in return a tained, and gravely stated in that House, piece of cotton. We had set one monster that it was of no consequence at all whe- upon the throne of Spain, and another ther France took any goods of us in re- on that of Portugal, over whom we had turn for her manufactures, or gold; for not the least influence, and all interference we had only to send our manufactures to on our part, in behalf of the oppressed South America, to obtain the gold, and people, under those tyrannical governthis was advanced by members of the new ments and foul usurpations was deprecated school, at a time when it was known that as unjust and inexpedient. The present South America had been glutted with our depression had been ascribed to a cessation goods, for which we could not obtain any of war, and to the effect of machinery; but profitable return. The petition he had whatever might have been their operation, presented stated that the unexampled dis- that had long subsided; and it had only tress and embarrasment of the country had been since the alteration of the currency, been occasioned by the late wars against and of the present system of commerce, the liberties of the people of America and that the depression had taken place; the France supported and abetted by a corrupt depreciation altogether was full half, which Parliament, and now the very persons who was in effect, double taxation, and the pehad been enjoying places under this titioners stated, that out of reduced means system, and had been supporting those they could not sustain the same burthens. oppressive measures, were turning round There was no means he believed of meetand declaiming against all interference ing the evil, but by a proportionate reducwith the internal concerns of any other tion of taxes, or an extension of the curnation. He would take some credit to rency. How far it was practicable to himself for having opposed the late war make an adequate reduction of the taxes, against France from its origin, and for he would not say; if the attempt were made having brought forward a petition from they must begin at the top, and go down the City, which was presented to that to the bottom. Establishments must be House so far back as January, 1795- greatly reduced, and salaries of every dethirty-five years before the time he was scription be cut down; without that, the speaking-praying the House to disclaim all extension of the currency would become intentions of interfering with the internal unavoidable. It was not a matter of concerns of France, and to take such choice but of necessity; the House measures for restoring tranquillity as might must apply a remedy, for the same system be consistent with the honour of this coun- could not go on with any safety. The try. The prayer was rejected, the war representation of Parliament, too, was was most unjustly persisted in, and our wholly unsuitable to the present state and debts and taxes, with our present distress condition of the country; and unless some and calamity, were mainly to be attributed change was made from within, it would, to our unfortunate interference; from be sooner or later, be made from without. ginning as accessaries we became prin- It was impossible to go on with a popucipals, and had interfered with the inter- lation of fifteen or twenty millions, and a nal concerns of almost every power upon debt of 900 millions, as we did with a the continent, where tyranny was to be population of five millions and no debt restored or upheld; but now the very sup- at all; this was impossible, and thereporters of those ruinous and tyrannical fore he would contend that there must be measures, told the people that we must a great alteration in the system of Governnot interfere with the internal concerns of ment. any other country. Every where had we aided and abetted tyranny, but in no one instance had we interfered in aid of the oppressed, or in support of public liberty. And what advantages had we derived, what gratitude had we experienced? We had expended our blood and treasure to restore the Bourbons, and so little grati Mr. Maberly explained, that his allusion was not made to the value of the exports and imports, but to their quality and quantity. Mr. O'Connell thought this an exceedingly proper opportunity to explain, that the worthy Alderman's allusions, strong as they were, could not apply to a re The TREASURER OF THE NAVY.] Chancellor of the Exchequer [looking at the clock] suggested that it was time to proceed to the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. The Order of the Day was accordingly read, and on the Motion being put, formed House of Commons. Such a his conduct which might, perhaps, be acHouse would have prevented the evils counted for by a change of circumstances. complained of. He had resigned office in 1828 with his friends, and he had accepted office in 1829 without his friends; why he had done this it might be impertinent in him to ask, and certainly it was foreign to the object of his Motion. He was bound, however, in the outset, to correct an error into which he had fallen. He had understood, and had so stated on former occasions, that the right hon. Sir James Graham rose to submit the Gentleman held a patent office under the Motion, concerning the office of Treasurer Customs, from which he received some of the Navy, of which he had given notice. emoluments. It was an office which conA very painful circumstance, he said, of ferred the exclusive privilege to publish a domestic nature, had almost compelled a Shipping List, with a statement of what him to abstain from bringing forward his ships cleared outwards, their cargoes, and Motion, and had it not been that it would various other information of this descriphave seemed disrespectful to the House to tion. He had learned, however, that he postpone his Motion a second time, he was in error, and that the right hon. Genshould not have undertaken the task, tleman was not in possession of any which he felt he should perform imper- emoluments from such an office. The fectly. He threw himself, however, on reversion, he believed, had been granted to the indulgent favour of the House, on him in 1817, but at present he did not which he thought he might calculate, and enjoy any emoluments beyond the 2,000l. even on its sympathy. The object of his a-year belonging to his office as Treasurer Motion was of a painful character, and it of the Navy. Having thus cleared his might seem even invidious to complain of ground, he would proceed to discuss the appointment of his right hon. friend the question. Not being precisely acto an office-he said friend, and he hoped quainted with official business, he had the right hon. Gentleman, the Treasurer found it necessary to seek for information of the Navy, would still allow him to use from others. He would first refer to the that name, but when he considered the cir- statement made by Lord Goderich, when cumstances and wants of the people, and he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in the professions made by the Government 1826, and who having filled the office at the opening of the Session-when he of Treasurer of the Navy, knew all the considered the calls made by a suffering duties of the office to which the right hon. country, for economy and relief, and the en- Gentleman had been appointed. gagements voluntarily entered into by his noble Viscount was contending that it Majesty's Ministers, that they would make would be improper to annex the office of every possible saving which could be ef- Treasurer of the Navy with that of Presifected without detriment to the public dent of the Board of Trade. In his arservice, he was bound to proceed. They gument on the subject, he thus described had, by filling up the place of Treasurer of the duties of that office: "He could assure the Navy, acted inconsistently with their the Committee that it was very far revoluntary engagements. On this point he moved from any thing like a sinecure, and his Majesty's Ministers were at issue, and that it would be impossible to transand he sought, by his Motion, to obtain fer its duties to the Board, as had been the opinion of the House on the subject. preposterously supposed, without injury to He would first disembarrass the question the public service. The business of the of circumstances which did not belong to Treasurer was not merely the acceptance it. The right hon. Gentleman would first of bills drawn upon him by the Comallow him to assure him that he was not ac-missioners of the Navy. It was also his tuated, in bringing forward the question, by any ill-will towards him. In common with every man who knew that right hon. Gentleman, he entertained for him a very great respect; he saw, however, a difference in The duty to see that the money was paid to dence, although he had not appointed them; but he found, one fine morning, that he had become legally liable for a sum of between 30,000l. and 40,000%. One gentleman connected with the office went off to America with 25,000l. of the public money, and another soon after became a defaulter to the amount of 10,000. on the discovery of which, that unfortunate person put a period to his existence." From one of those persons 15,000l. had been recovered; but another person had escaped with some of the public money, and from his securities nothing had been recovered. Again, Lord Goderich stated, few years back, the law was very defective as to seamen's wills, and frauds to a great extent had been committed on individuals, and on the public, by the facility with which money was obtained under fictitious wills. By the regulations which had now been established, the Treasurer of the Navy was personally responsible for any sums of the public money thus paid to individuals to whom they were not legally due. If, then, the duties and responsibility of the Treasurer were thrown upon the Paymaster, who had only 1,000l. a-year, he did not think that those duties would be efficiently performed." He used the words of Lord Goderich in another place." that 30,000l. had been made away with, "Thus, the only difference between the office of Treasurer of the Navy and the Paymaster, was the responsibility, the personal responsibility to which the former was liable, and the latter not." This was the great point insisted on by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the description given by him of the office in the year 1826. The right hon. Member for the county of Edinburgh, had, a few nights ago, announced the prospective intention of Government to discontinue the office of Paymaster of the Navy whenever an opportunity for doing so should occur; and the Ministers had thereby distinctly recognized that, of the two offices, the treasurership and paymastership of the navy, one only was necessary. The ground taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the continuance of both those offices, was the sole narrow ground of the responsibility of the Treasurer. The great principle of responsibility, however, as far as respected security to the public from individuals, was proved to be worth nothing when put to the test. The best security for the public was short accounts, simply arranged, which were frequently audited. The responsibility of individuals bound in sums of money was found, on emergency, to be worth little or nothing. What was the test of this responsibility? A few days after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given this description of the duties of Treasurer of the Navy, he had stated that there had been a defaulter in this office-a gentleman by the name, we believe, of Tweedieand then it came out that what Lord Goderich called responsibility was irresponsibility. He stated, "that on his entering the office, he found several gentlemen in whom he was obliged to repose confi but Government having learned the route of the defaulter, were fortunate enough to catch him in America. They could not make him a prisoner in that country, but after some threats, 15,000l. or 16,000%. were refunded, and his securities were obliged to pay largely; but, notwithstanding, the public lost by the transaction; about 6,000l. was the sum the other defaulter made away with, but nearly the entire amount had been recovered from his securities. He (Lord Goderich), however, had fully satisfied the Lords of the Treasury that he was not to blame, and that Right Honourable Board acquitted him accordingly. And, in order to put a stop to similar transactions, a bill was brought into Parliament by which their recurrence was prevented." By that Bill the responsibility which previously existed had been diminished; and it appeared that if the Treasurer of the Navy were able to satisfy the Lords of the Treasury that he had not acted carelessly, they would not call on him to make good any deficiency. The responsibility, therefore, was nothing. If evidence could not be produced that the Treasurer was a particeps criminis, his responsibility was not even the shadow of a shade. The hon. Baronet then expressed his great regret, that the Finance Committee had died out; and his hope, that the Member' for Abingdon would, by a Motion, have an inquest held on it. He should be glad to see it revived; for he knew that would be acceptable to the country, and would, he believed, be salutary in its effects. He placed great reliance on the Chairman of that Committee, of whose zeal and diligence the House had already received abundant evidence. The hon. Member also eulogised the Master of the Mint, for |