vantage, and would only disappoint | same with those which had been so ably the object which his hon. friend had in stated by his hon. friend the Member for view. It would terrify the hon. Members Limerick. There was, however, a part of whom his hon. friend had nominated on that system which he conceived that it the Committee, from attending its sittings, would be both just and necessary to introif they were to be compelled to examine duce into Ireland. He thought that the into the operation of the Grand-jury laws, aged and the impotent, the halt and the the laws for the Education of the Poor, blind, had a right, because they were the amount of Market-tolls, Church-rates, helpless, to be maintained by the richer Poor-rates, and various other objects, which part of the community. He therefore his hon. friend had announced with such wished for the introduction of a law which rapidity as to render it quite impossible would give every person who came under for him to take them down. There was that description a claim of relief on the one of these points to which he would parish in which he was either born or momentarily advert. His hon. friend had settled. He was sure that the people of spoken of 800,000l. a-year, levied for local Ireland would have no objection to support purposes, as an actual poor-rate, and he that description of persons who were the proposed to inquire into the application of original objects of the Act of Queen Elizathat sum. But his hon. friend knew very beth. In the part of the country with well that a large part of it was destined which he was best acquainted, the people by special Acts of Parliament to particular were willing enough to assess themselves purposes; and the Committee could not for the relief of such objects; but volunalter these. It would be an herculean tary assessment was faulty in this respect, labour, and beyond the powers of the Com- any cold-hearted person could decline mittee, to inquire into all these acts, and contributing to it, and could throw the therefore it would have been wiser in his burthen off his shoulders upon those of hon. friend not to have included the individuals whose hearts were more open county assessments among the subjects to the dictates of charity. One of the for the Committee to inquire into, and most striking and horrible things in Irewiser if his hon. friend had taken little or land was the sight of its wandering begno notice of them in his speech. The gars. He believed that the feeling of state of the poor in Ireland, he admitted, charity was as strong in Ireland as in any well deserved the consideration of the country in the world: but still the relief House. His hon. friend, the Member for afforded to these beggars was inadequate, Limerick, was opposed to the introduction and the ostentatious mode of administerof any system of Poor-laws into Ireland, ing it formed a forcible contrast to the whilst another hon. friend of his, the simple mode adopted in England. It Member for Liverpool, was a warm cham- was not unusual to see a dozen cripples pion for their introduction. He had together at a town's end in Ireland. The listened with great attention to both their mode in which they obtained relief was speeches, and with all deference to his somewhat curious. A case, or box, in hon. friend, the Member for Liverpool, he which one of these cripples were seated, must say that he had never heard any was placed by some-good natured person speech on the imposition of the English at the door of another person's house, system of Poor-laws upon Ireland, so de- and was left there until the cripple was void of every thing like common sense or relieved. After he had received relief in argument as the speech which he had just the shape of refreshment or money, as the delivered. He was anxious to express his case might be, it was customary for the own opinion upon that subject. It was person who relieved him to convey the naturally divisible into two parts, and he box to the door of the next house, and to would seize that opportunity of saying a leave the cripple before it. By that perfew words upon both. He should object son he was passed on to the next house, to the imposition of the whole of the Eng- and so on from house to house. Thus lish system of Poor-laws upon Ireland, from it often happened that these cripples were a conviction that it would tend, more than carried on from one house to another any other measure which the imagination through whole townships. The House of man could devise, to pauperize and would readily conceive that persons in a barbarize Ireland; and the reasons upon state of decrepitude were among the most which he rested that conviction were the offensive objects which could be contem

an advocate for the introduction into Ireland Lord F. L. Gower said, he heartily conof Poor-laws, for he could not avoid attri-curred with the object of the Motion made buting to that conspicuous difference in the by the hon. Member for Limerick, though legislative enactments of the two countries much of the difference in the wealth of the people. In Holland and Sweden, and England, where a compulsory system of relief prevailed, how different was the character of the people from what it was in those countries where they depended wholly on casual charity for support. He feared, indeed, when he looked at the difference between the population of England and Ireland, that the English system alone would not suit that country. Where there were no Poor-laws, dissoluteness and idleness distinguished the people, and imprecations followed the refusal to bestow casual charity. Until some powerful remedy was proposed, it was in vain to talk of checks on the population, and of moral restraint; for the evil would only go on increasing from day to day. He thought that the English Poor-laws, freed from abuses not natural to them, might be advantageously introduced into Ireland. He could not agree with his hon. friend, who had said that since the Poor-laws had first been introduced, Parliament had been engaged in one continued effort to amend them. In his opinion they began to suffer abuse in 1796, when, for the first time, was introduced the idle he had almost said the impious-system of endeavouring to uphold the condition of the pauper after a very bad season in the same manner as after the best seasons-a system in which the overseer endeavoured to counteract in his establishments and to defeat by his care, the will of Providence. And it was remarkable that from about the same period, 1796, his hon. friend had quoted the first instance of an attempt to amend the Poor-laws. The Act of Elizabeth did not encourage the system of relief without labour, and the two things ought to be separated. He was for introducing that Act, or the preamble of that Act into Ireland, and he looked to the better class of farmers who were growing up in that country, as likely to form an excellent class of persons for carrying such an Act into execution. The landowners of the country had hitherto been interested in the increase of the numbers of the population; give them an interest the other way, and the evil of a redundant population would be much diminished.

he differed from that hon. Member as to some of the doctrines he had laid down. Knowing the attention that the hon. Member had paid to the subject of political economy, he was glad to hear that hon. Member declare that he would not be classed with those who maintained absenteeism to be no evil. The process of reasoning by which the gentleman who stood so high in that science had arrived at the conclusion which he had stated before a Committee of the House, and subsequently published, he had always been unable to understand-and he would make the same reply to the fallacy as Johnson made to the philosophy of Berkeley-he would strike his foot upon Besborough and Michelstown, and contrasting them with places to which the landlord never came, the difference would afford a refutation of the doctrine. He did not think that the sudden introduction into Ireland of a system of Poor-laws would check the immigration of Irish poor into this country, or the emigration of Irish gentlemen. It was only by making the country more agreeable that the latter would remain, and the former would come over in great numbers, as they had hitherto doue: if they could not find one means of procuring a passage, they would resort to another-they would be like Rabelais, who, when he wanted to go to Paris, and could not afford the means of the journey, wrote on two packets," poison for the King," and "poison for the Queen," and had his expenses defrayed by the Government, and explained on his arrival the circumstances which had created so much alarm by telling the authorities that he had found that the cheapest and most expeditious method of getting conveyed to Paris. The evils of this system of immigration into this country of the Irish poor had often been referred to, but Members had overlooked the advantage of their coming here at a season when a great degree of labour was required. The only part of the hon. Member's speech that created apprehension in his mind was the last portion, in which he proposed more subjects for consideration than could be advantageously investigated by any committee. He would not say that in any one of the things mentioned by the hon. Member the interests of the poor

were not concerned, but in many of them I should be willing to submit to a comtheir interests were only indirectly affected, pulsory rate for the relief of the impotent, and he thought they ought to confine if he could be satisfied that it could by any themselves to those subjects in which the possibility be limited to them; but he was poor were directly interested. The Grand sure that it could not, and he was ready Jury system was one of those matters that to do the only thing which ought to be only had an indirect influence on the or would be done with a view to serve the condition of the poor, and in his opinion poor themselves. He was ready to tax it ought not to be introduced into the the landed interest of Ireland for the purpresent inquiry. If it were, long as the pose of employing the labouring classes. Session might last, it would hardly last He would reverse, with respect to Ireland, long enough for the attainment of the ob- the principle on which pauper-labour was ject. He agreed with the hon. Member employed in England, as the only justifias to the importance of the subject of tolls able course that could be pursued. That and customs, and had prepared a bill re- labour should be employed for productive lating to it, which, if found, as he trusted and useful purposes; it should be directed it would be, deserving of the approbation to the improvement of each particular disof the House, the credit of it would de- trict. Now it was notorious, that the vast servedly rest with the hon. Member op- application of funds for the support of the posite, who had been the most active poor in England, ended pretty nearly Member of the Committee to which that where it began; and the system was well subject had been referred. described, when they were told of the poor digging holes one day and filling them up the next. It was expedient to prevent the people from starving, but it was also proper that their labour should not be thrown away; and, as the system was conducted here, it was really useless as to any great national purpose or object. He would create independent sources of industry, which would not otherwise exist, and which would afford the means of taxing the lands so as to meet the expenditure. The gallant Member for Liverpool had been pleased to say, that no Irish Member rose in that House but to call for a grant of public money, and he had stated that such was the fact on this occasion. Was he justified in making that assertion by the tenour of the speech of the hon. Mover? Did he ask for any grant of public money? Did he seek for any boon that Ireland was not to repay? Unquestionably he did not understand him so; and in all the communications which he had had with his hon. friend on the subject, his hon. friend had always said, that his object was, that labour should be applied on the principle of improving the country by it, and that, in turn, the country should be taxed to meet the expense. For his own part he was for a territorial tax in Ireland, but different from that in England-a territorial tax levied for the improvement of the land, and payable out of that improvement. The principle which he meant to assert was this, that the land should be taxed for the use and employment of the people

Mr. M. Fitzgerald said, that there had been several definitions given of the Poorlaws that night, which differed materially from each other. The definition of the hon. Member for Liverpool (General Gascoyne) was this-that if Irishmen came to England a second time, they were to be punished,-fined, he believed. [General Gascoyne said "confined."] Well, confined: that would prevent a repetition of the offence. But if he confined all who so offended, Liverpool must be provided with large gaols. The hon. Member had talked of the manufactures which England supplied to Ireland; but the Irish sent their manufactures likewise-their principal manufactures were corn and men. Another definition was given by the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow) which was the adoption of the Act of Elizabeth. But he apprehended that the adoption of the Act of Elizabeth would be pregnant with consequences mischievous to those very persons whom he was desirous of serving. If the principle of a compulsory demand for subsistence by the poor be admitted, all the evils experienced from the Poor-laws in England would afford a very slight notion of the evils which would arise in Ireland. The Poor-laws, it was well known to all who were acquainted with Ireland, were not applicable to that country. The whole pauper-population, instead of being incited to labour, would be encouraged in idleness. He was, however, not disposed to refuse making a safe and proper provision for the poor, he

on it, in such a manner as to repay all expenses whatever, both principal and interest. In order to judge of the course that ought to be taken with respect to Ireland it would be necessary to consider the peculiar circumstances of that country. The peculiarity of the situation of Ireland, as contrasted with that of England, consisted in this, that a vast proportion of income or revenue, derived from the country, was totally withdrawn from it; and therefore domestic industry in Ireland did not obtain that just reward which every where else was claimed by those who resided on the soil. That was the peculiarity of Ireland. The absenteeism of that country deprived it of that machinery which gave a stimulus to labour; and to that point the Committee ought to direct particular attention. To apply a remedy to that evil, if remedy could be found, ought seriously to engage the consideration of the Committee. The noble Lord and the right hon. the Treasurer of the Navy had objected to some of the multifarious objects to which his hon. friend proposed to direct the attention of the Committee; but it appeared to him, that his hon. friend, when attempting in his opening speech to state his view of all the sufferings connected with the distress of Ireland, could not possibly avoid those particular topics on which he touched. His hon. friend had been charged with not making a proposition as extensive as the case he had laid before the House; he was charged with doing nothing more than adverting to the evidence which had formerly been taken on this subject, and then leaving the case pretty much where he found it. Now, he believed that it was not in his hon. friend's nature to leave the subject without arriving at some practical good. When he referred to those voluminous reports on this question, he stated that no practical result had been derived from them; but he went on to say, that when at length he should have all the evidence before him, and when the subject was taken up under calmer and better auspices than heretofore, he would exert himself to work out some efficient and certain benefit for the country. He hoped that the labours of the Committee would be successful, and that such measures would be taken as would prevent the influx of Irish paupers into this country, by raising the condition of the Irish labourer at home. The present was the

first time that the House could come to the consideration of Ireland without any painful feelings. The handsome manner in which the Government had granted the Committee augured well for its beneficial results. He would make but one observation more. He believed that distress did exist in Ireland, but that it arose solely from the want of employment; and that was the point to which the Committee ought to turn its attention. He believed that there existed in Ireland the great and growing seeds of prosperity, and they only wanted, to become flourishing, a little legislative care.

General Gascoyne explained: He had only said that a repetition of applications by the same persons for passes into England might be punished by imprisonment, in order to prevent them making a trade of travelling.

Mr. Secretary Peel was unwilling to permit a question relating so immediately to the domestic policy of one part of the empire, and not very remote from that of the other, to pass without a few observations from him, particularly in consideration of the public situation which he held. He was favourable to the appointment of the Committee; for nothing could be more improper than to attempt to legislate upon the subject of providing for the Irish poor, without very mature preliminary inquiries, and nothing could be so unwise as to reject the proposal to legislate after such inquiries had been made. One great part of the value of the Committee would depend on the mode in which the inquiry should be conducted. If the Committee entered into the general condition of the Irish poor, he would not say that much valuable information would not be collected, but perfectly certain was he that no practical result would ensue. He would advise his hon. friend, who he supposed would sit as chairman of the Committee, to make his report upon the few following points:First, a clear statement to the House, and to the British public, of the existing enactments in Ireland, with reference to the provisions for the Irish poor; the extent to which the land is subject to any pecuniary levy for the purposes of providing for any classes of the poor, mutilated, diseased, or wanting subsistence; next to inquire, whether it were desirable to extend those enactments, and to describe the measures by which they were to be extended, with the machinery by