ter provision for the employment of their | "Ubi nulla fugam reperit fallacia, victus If he could point out any plan by which this evil could be remedied, he had no doubt the House would pay attention to his Bill. He wished, therefore, to make it the interest of parishes to adopt those means by which he thought the system would be got rid of. And first, as to the evil, and the operation of it on the labouring classes. A committee of that House reported, in 1824, that in a certain parish in Sussex, the wages of labour had been reduced by this system to 6d. a day. Since that period, now six years ago, the evil had not diminished. In the district in which he lived, there were many parishes, and to the shame of those parishes he spoke it, in which, by the wicked and illegal system of paying labourers out of the Poor-rates, the weekly rate of wages for an able-bodied unmarried labourer, had been reduced to 3s., or 3s. 6d. It was impossible that they could live on this; and yet, if they refused it, they could get nothing, for the parish would not relieve them, and the farmer would not employ them. When he stated this, he had not, he was sorry to say, stated the worst. In the course of the late dreadful winter, this sum of 3s., or 3s. 6d. per week was for no less than three weeks in abeyance. In saying this it might be told him, that he was destroying his own case, by proving too much; for the miserable people, having no credit, must have ceased to exist, from absolute want. His answer however, was, that the fact was as he had stated it to be, and that he was ready to prove it by evidence. This was sufficient for him, for he could hardly be called upon to prove how these unfortunate beings contrived to live, or how they starved, or to what extent they stole, or to what extent they were indebted to private charity for the means of subsistence. justice to these men, however, he must say that he did not believe they did steal; and he stated it as a circumstance highly to the credit of a peasantry labouring under such fearful privations, that at the last Assizes held in the county the calendar was lighter than he had known it to be for some time past. None but a person who had attended Petty Sessions could form an idea of the extent of the misery produced by this system. Men, young and old, women past the age for labour, and women with children in their arms, came before the magistrates for relief. The men professed their readiness to work, and the overseer said, "It is quite true these men are willing to labour, but we have no employment for them and as to relieving them, we cannot collect the poor-rates. What could the magistrates do? They could direct the overseer to distrain; but such a course would, in many cases, only add fresh paupers to the list. While he was thus detailing the miserable condition of the labouring classes, he was not unmindful of the state in which the farmers were, or of the invidious duties which an overseer had to perform. He recollected In both; but of this he was quite sure,- free hiring and fair remuneration for their namely, that if the evil went on increas-labour. beg to suggest to his noble friend that certain parties should be exempted from its operation; for instance, farmers who cultivated their farms by their own labour and that of their sons, and that persons so employing labourers should not be thereby qualified to vote at vestries. With such exemptions, he thought the Bill would be likely to do much good. Lord Nugent was aware of the difficulties in the way of parts of the plan, but he would endeavour to meet them as well as he could. Lord J. Russell feared, that on the second reading of the Bill, he should be obliged to object to it altogether. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. ing, and the severities of another winter Mr. Lennard said, he would not opcame upon this wretched peasantry, no-pose the bringing in the Bill, but would thing but an armed force could keep them down and make them starve in quiet. Something, then, it was evident must be done, and that speedily. He proposed, in the first place, to give the magistrates power to grapple with the roundsmen system, in parishes which may be convinced that the system was injurious. The provisions of his Bill were not obligatory, except in allowing two-thirds of the parish to bind the remainder. He was aware that it was not prudent in the mover of a bill to enter into the details of it when he asked for leave to bring it in, and he Mr. R. Colborne thought this one of would not enter into the details of this. those general measures which were someHe would state only generally, that what times adopted to remedy local evils; the he proposed would be in the nature of a evil which it went to cure was not the labour-rate; but not open to the objec- fault of the law, but of the mode in which tion, which none could feel more strongly it was administered, and showed the bad than he did-namely, that it would sub-effects of interfering in any manner, by side into the very thing which it was his legislative measures, with the wages of object to guard against. His Bill would labour. proceed on three principles-first, it would encourage the occupiers of lands to employ as much labour as possible on the lands in their occupation. There would, of course, be no compulsion here, for nothing could be so absurd as to oblige a man to employ more labour than he pleased; but it would merely encourage and hold out an inducement to the employment of labour. The second principle was, that it was desirable to lower the Poor-rates; and if money must be paid for the support of the labourer, that labour should be given in exchange for that money. The third principle was, to give to labour a fair and open market by competion, in order to secure as liberal a compensation as possible to the labourer; and in this view he would make the bargain to be carried on between the labourer and the hirer without the farmer being brought face to face with the overseer. His great object was, to get rid of the roundsmen system, and therefore it would not be Mr. Bright asked whether the right hon. necessary to apply it to those parishes Gentleman intended to bring on the subwhere that system was not practised.ject in the present session. Though the Bill differed in many respects The Chancellor of the Exchequer refrom that which was called the property-plied, that he was prepared to do so, but plan used in some parts of Oxfordshire, at present he could not fix the time. yet in others it was founded upon part of that plan. The noble Lord concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to promote the employment of the Poor, by VOL. XXIII. SUPPLY. ASSESSED TAXES.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the further consideration of the Resolution of Supply, which had been postponed from the 2nd inst. Mr. Bright took that opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to propose the consolidation of the Assessed Taxes Acts, and when he should be ready to bring it forward. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he was so much occupied in the consolidation of the Stamp Acts that he had not had time to pay attention to the other subject, and could not at that moment say when he should be ready with it. Mr. C. Calvert asked, whether the right hon. Gentleman intended to renew the Assessed Taxes Composition Act. If he did, it was time that those concerned. 2 Z should be informed on the subject, that | port on every such occasion. The counthey might know what to do, as the Act try already owed him great thanks for what would expire in October. he had done, and he felt bound thus publicly to return him his thanks for the course he had pursued, which he hoped he would continue. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the House and the Country would obtain a full explanation of what was intended on the subject in a few days. The Resolutions were then read, and several of them agreed to. On the question that a sum, not exceed ing 85,0251. be granted for the expenses of Salaries, &c., to the Civil Establishments of the Ordnance in the Tower and Pallmall, Mr. Hume observed, that as the House had decided against the recommendation of the Finance Committee, and had negatived the reduction of the office of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance, it was hopeless now to have any reduction in this department. But there was an understanding that if the Lieutenant-general were continued, the salary of the Mastergeneral, which was now almost a sinecure, should be reduced from 3,000l. a-year, its present amount, to 1,500., which was the salary attached to it in 1801. Unless some reductions were made in those estimates, what credit could be given to Ministers for a desire to reduce the burthens of the country? The services included in the present vote of 85,0251., cost the country, in 1796, only 17,000l. It was, however, now a hopeless matter to expect much reduction by Ministers, and all he prayed for was, that there might be a falling off in the revenue next year to the amount of 3,000,000l., for only something of that kind would force Ministers to reduce the expenditure. Colonel Sibthorp hoped the falling-off in the revenue would be double the sum mentioned by the hon. member for Montrose, for that alone would oblige Government to reduction. He had had several anonymous communications lately, pointing out various instances of extravagant application of the public money; and though he would not use them, for he was unwilling to encourage any such communications, thinking they came from those who, if what they stated were true, ought not to be afraid or ashamed to avow themselves, yet he believed much of the information conveyed by them to be correct. He hoped, therefore, the hon. member for Montrose would continue his very useful exertions to promote economy, and he should be happy to give him his best sup Mr. Trant could not approve of that kind of economy recommended by the hon. member for Montrose, of going back to the system of 1792, which he so often recommended. Let it be recollected, that we formerly carried on war by our money, and employing foreign troops to fight for us, and the consequence was, that war was much more expensive, and less efficiently conducted: but when we began to take the matter into our own hands, we went on much better. The Ordnance Department was now in a much more efficient state, and though he saw a formidable, and perhaps, not a very constitutional, array of seven or eight officers opposite connected with it; yet he would rather see the department in its present effective state, than go back to the former practice of carrying on the war rather by the employment of others than by our own forces. The Motion was then agreed to,-as were the other Resolutions. Sir A. Grant brought up the Report of the last Committee of Supply. The Resolutions for the grant of 8,9331. for the Storekeepers' Establishments at Woolwich and 17,4321. for other stations in England, were agreed to. On the Resolution for granting the sum of 28,6451. for Storekeepers' Establishments abroad and in Ireland, He Mr. Hume, adverting to what fell from the hon. member for Dover, said, he did not expect his support in any useful object, and he should never seek it. would take this opportunity of asking whether the Government were still going on manufacturing and selling powder. He thought the practice of manufacturing our own gunpowder, was a very extravagant mode of supplying the public service with that article, which might be much more cheaply supplied by others. Mr. Perceval said, that Government was at present manufacturing only a small quantity of powder, and was not selling any. Mr. Hume must repeat, that we were paying three times more for the article by Government taking the manufacture on itself, than it might be obtained for from private manufacturers. We had now a Returns Ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, of the supply for twenty-five years on hand, and that was quite sufficient. Sir J. Wrottesley concurred with the hon. Member, that the system of manufacturing by Government was any thing but one of economy. He had heard that some arms, which were made for the East India Company at our manufactory at Enfield, might have been obtained much cheaper at Birmingham; and that, accordingly, the Company refused the contract. Mr. Perceval said, that Government offered to make some arms for the Company, but the contract was refused, though without reference to the price or the pattern. The Resolution agreed to. HOUSE OF LORDS. Wednesday, April 7. MINUTES.] Petitions for opening the East-India and China Trade were presented from North Shields, by the Duke of SOMERSET; and from Carlisle, by the Earl of WESTMORLAND. The Earl of VERULAM presented a Petition from Hertfordshire, for a Repeal of the Malt and Beer Taxes. On the Motion of the same noble Lord, at the request, he said, of his noble friend, the Marquis of SALISBURY, a message was sent to the House of Commons, requesting the attendance of Messrs. DUNDAS and COMPTON, Members of that House, to give evidence before their Lordships relative to the East Retford Disfranchisement Bill; and all Papers, Documents, &c. elucidatory of that Bill were ordered to be printed. Sir A. GRANT, Sir G. CLERK, Mr. CALCRAFT, and other Members, brought up the Grand Jury Extension Bill (Ireland), the Smugglers' Families' Maintenance Bill; the Ellenborough Divorce Bill, and several private Bills, to which the House of Commons had agreed. CHANCERY COMMISSION.] The Earl of Eldon said, he had a document which he was anxious to lay before their Lordships relative to Bankruptcy Commissions, but he was obliged to defer doing so till a day or two after the holidays. He would take advantage, however, of that occasion to repeat what he had before stated and what had also been stated by the Lord Chancellor, that the Chancery Commissioners had discharged their duties as commissioners gratuitously, and many of them, too, at a personal sacrifice of professional emolument. He was the more anxious to repeat this fact, as it had been confidently asserted, in a recent pamphlet, that the Chancery Commission was a most costly one, though its members, as he again repeated, had received no pecuniary reward for their labours whatever. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] The Haymarket Removal Bill was Read a third time and passed. number of Debtors who had taken the Rules of the King's Bench and Fleet Prisons, for the last five years, specifying their respective amounts of debt (classified in hundreds,) the Fees they paid, and how these Fees were sanctioned by law, and applied. [He stated his object to be, to show how far these Rules operated in prevention of the settlement of honest debts, before the Insolvent Debtors' Act next came under the consideration of the House.] On the Motion of Mr. WODEHOUSE, of the total amount of Money levied for Poor-rates and County-rates, in every Parish or Township of England and Wales, during the year ending March 25, 1830. On the Motion of Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS, of the quantity of Rum consumed in England, Scotland, and Ireland, during the last five years preceding the reduction of the Duty on British Spirits, to 2s. 6d. per gallon. On the Motion of Mr. ATTWOOD, of the whole expense incurred for the PostOffice Packets between Calais and Dover, including the Port-dues charged for the two years ending January 5, 1829, and January 5, 1830: a similar account of the Post-Office Packets between Margate and Ostend, with the amount of Fares charged by both Packets for Passengers, Horses and Carriages. Petitions Presented. Against a Renewal of the East-India Company's Charter, by Mr. RAMSDEN, from the inhabitants of the Clothing District of Shipley. For the Abolition of the Duty on Coals, by Mr. IRVING, from Larn. For mitigating the severity of the Criminal Code, by Mr. WESTERN, from the inhabitants of Kelvedon, (Essex):~ by Mr. ASHURST, from Chipping Norton. For the repeal of the Malt and Beer Duties, by Mr. JOHN FANE, from Burford. Against the proposed alteration in the Beer Trade, by Colonel SIRTHORP, from the Publicans of Lincoln. Complaining of Distress, and praying for Relief, by Mr. EASTHOPE, from the county of Hertford. EXCESSIVE TAXATION.] Mr. Hume presented a Petition, agreed to by a large number of the working Stonemasons of the Metropolis, assembled at the theatre of the London Mechanics' Institution, complaining that their situation was deteriorated, which they attributed to excessive Taxation, and praying the House for the further reduction of Taxation, and the abolition of all Sinecures. The petitioners also prayed the House would take into its consideration the large sums paid to the Bishops, and other members of the Established Church, while the industrious man was reduced to a state of starvation. The petitioners complained that the lordly followers of the meek religion of Christ starved them out of existence. This, the hon. Member said, was a fair subject for petitioning; he cordially agreed with the prayer of the Petition, and hoped, when there was a reformed Parliament-for which the petitioners also prayed-that the large salaries of the Bishops would be reduced, and every man paid according to his labour. MISREPRESENTATION.] Mr. Hume, on only this morning, when a gentleman brought me the paper, and pointed out the passage, that I saw it. I said to him then, as I now repeat, that no such expression was used; yet, as it conveys a personal reflection, and involves in some degree the character of the House, by exhibiting a violation of the courtesy which one hon. Member is bound to pay another in debate, I have no other course open than to take this notice of it. I do not mean to say that the error in the paper is intentional, but as no other person had spoken at the time than myself, no other could have been addressed in such language, had it been used. I hope, therefore, the hon. and gallant Member will say how far this statement is consistent, or not, with his recollection of what fell from him in his speech." concluding the presentation of the Peti- | used, could only have applied to me. I tion, spoke as follows, in allusion to last can only say I never heard it, and it was night's debate:-"Sir, it is not often that I trouble the House with any matter which is merely personal to myself, and I am of opinion that the greatest benefit results to the community from the utmost freedom of debate in this House. I am likewise a man who does not care much for the expression of opinion upon general questions, thinking it just as well to leave that to be reflected upon; and always confiding in my own intentions. I wish also to state, that no person can be more favourable than I am to the full publicity of the reports of our proceedings; the utility of this House, in fact, mainly depends upon the diligent, constant, proper and faithful reports of these proceedings; and upon this point I would just say, that I hope my hon. friend near me, (Colonel Sibthorp,) will bring forward the motion of which he has given notice, and in which he shall have my best support, to obtain leave to suspend the Standing Order, and to have the reporters regularly introduced and sanctioned, as well as placed in a more favourable situation for the performance of their duty; where there will be less liability to mistakes, and better means used for avoiding errors, than we can well expect under the present arrangements. What I rose for, Sir, is to call your attention to a misrepresentation of what took place here last night. I hold in my hand a newspaper, [the hon. Member did not name it,] which is, I believe, as correct a paper as any in conveying to the public what passes in this House, but which attributes last night an expression to the hon, and gallant officer opposite that certainly was never heard by me. I had, I thought, paid the fullest attention to what was passing here at the time, and I do not believe any such expression was used, for it would have been that extreme violation of the decorum of the House, which you, Sir, would not have permitted from the Chair, and which I certainly could not have allowed to pass without observation. The expression attributed in this paper to the hon. and gallant officer is as follows: 'The lie, therefore, that he (Lord Ellenborough) had connived at his own disgrace, was so monstrous, that he (Sir H. Hardinge) threw it back with scorn on its contemptible author.' I was the only person who had previously spoken in the debate, and therefore such a phrase, if Sir Henry Hardinge.-"If, immediately after I spoke at the moment, the hon. Member had no recollection of my using such a phrase, although he says he was attentively listening to me, he will easily believe it is very probable I could not have used it. No such expression was, in point of fact, used by me, as directed against him. Certainly, I never could have so far departed from the courtesy which one Gentleman is bound to observe towards another in this House, as to charge him with uttering a notorious and unnatural lie. What I said was, as well as I recollect, that the accusation against Lord Ellenborough, of having connived at his own disgrace was a foul calumny, and I threw back the unnatural lie upon the authors of it. I used the plural number, intending the imputation for the authors of those calumnies out of doors, of which Lord Ellenborough had to complain. What I did say last night I find reported with singular, indeed wonderful, accuracy in The Times newspaper of this morning; and there I find the word authors,' which of course could not mean the hon. member for Montrose. But at the same time I do intend to accuse him of perverting the bearing of the evidence in his remarks upon it. There is one error in the concluding paragraph of my speech, in which I am stated to have said, when speaking of Lord Ellenborough, that if it could be shown he had done any thing wrong, he would be the first man to come forward and atone for it.' I said nothing of this |