{MARCH 29}

Old men forget; yes, all shall be forgot,
But we'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day.

of

He thought that noble Lord fairly entitled
to the favour and gratitude of the House, and
he should think it mean and dastardly to
grudge to his merits the rewards he fairly de-
served. It must, however, be remembered,
that that noble Lord already enjoyed the
command of a regiment; it must also be
remembered, that the House was called on
every year to vote sums for the governors
of fortresses, such as those of Plymouth,
the Tower, and Edinburgh Castle, which
were always defended on the ground that
they were the proper rewards for great
military services. The services of the
noble Lord justly entitled him to such a
kind of reward. Then was the situation
of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance
such a species of reward? Certainly not;
on the contrary, his argument was, that
that office was of a double character,
partly civil and partly military, and that it
was not indispensably necessary. The
principle on which he should argue the
question was laid down in the Report
the Finance Committee, in these terms:-
"No Government is justified in taking
the smallest sum of money from the peo-
ple, unless a case can be clearly estab-
lished to show that it will be productive
of some essential advantage to them, and
one that cannot be obtained by a smaller
sacrifice. The real wants of the people
shall not be made to give way to any
imaginary wants of the State, which arise
from so many sources, that it is frequently
very difficult to prevent the operation of
an undue influence." Then the question
was, is the situation of Lieutenant-gene-
ral of the Ordnance productive of real
advantage to the public service, or is it one
of the imaginary wants of the State? He
(Sir J. Graham) was prepared to argue
that the office was not of essential advan-
tage to the public service, but one of the
In arguing
imaginary wants of the state.
this question, it was impossible for him to
This battle
enliven a thrice-told-tale.
had been fought before; he had brought
the subject before the House once already.
He trusted, then, that the House would
bear with him whilst he went over the
evidence. The House would probably be
alarmed at that portentous volume [pro-
ducing the Report of the Finance Com-
mittee]; but it was his intention to read
only a short extract or two. He should

tee.

first refer to the evidence of the Duke of
Wellington before the Finance Commit-
His Grace had given plain answers
to simple questions. The noble Duke was
asked "Do you consider the continu-
ance of the Lieutenant-general of the
Ordnance as essential to the well-being of
the service?"-"Yes, I do." His Grace
went on to give the reasons for his opi-
nion. "The Lieutenant-general has some
very important duties to perform. I do
not mean to say that the Master-general
cannot perform them, for he sometimes
does perform those duties. In my time,
the Lieutenant-general was absent some-
times, and at other times I was absent
myself.

When he was absent, I performed his duties." So far the evidence of the Duke of Wellington established the fact, that each of these offices was vicarious to the other. When the Mastergeneral was absent, the Lieutenant-general performed his duty; and vice versa, when the Lieutenant-general was absent, his functions were performed by the Master-general: the duties of each were the

same.

The noble Duke proceeded-" He has some duties to perform which are very important, and it is essential to the wellbeing of the service that he should perform them: the inspection of the troops, and a great deal of duty at Woolwich, particularly the examination of all the men for discharges." The last clause in his Grace's answer it was material to consider, because circumstances had occurred since 1828, which very much altered the force of his observation. It was this"It is very material that there should be a military officer constantly at the Board." He (Sir J. Graham) would state how this office was constituted. There was a Lieutenant-general, a Surveyor-general, a Clerk At the time when of the Ordnance, a Storekeeper, and a Clerk of Deliveries. this evidence was given, the Lieutenantgeneral was in Portugal, the Surveyorgeneral was a naval officer, the Clerk was his hon. friend opposite, the Storekeeper was Mr. Singleton, and, in fact, the only military officer was the Clerk of the Deliveries; whereas, at present there were four military officers to one civilian. This fact materially varied the evidence of the Duke of Wellington, which was given at a time when there was only one military officer in attendance. When the Board assembled at present, and when the Master-general was in attendance, and the

who is discharged with a pension is fit to be discharged; his military experience is of importance in superintending the discipline of the military corps at Woolwich." On the point he deposed to, as to the necessity of the Lieutenant-general's superintending the discharge of the pensioners and the details of the corps at Woolwich, he would refer the House to page 38 of the Evidence, where his right hon. friend gave the following reply. He was asked--" Why might not the pensioners be examined by the Chelsea Board?"

"I see no objection to it further than that the charge for the pensioners being in the Ordnance department, there would be no saving by the transfer; there would be a feeling on the part of the soldiers that their interests were not so well attended to by strangers as by their own officers." So far with respect to the pensioners. Then with regard to the discipline at Woolwich. The Committee ask "Might not the office of the Lieutenant-general be dispensed with, if that duty were transferred?" His right hon. friend's answer was—“ He has, besides, very important duties to attend to, in taking care of the discipline of the 7,000 artillery, and 700 or 800 officers, in attending reviews, and looking after the interior affairs and details of the regiment: in fact, he is a general Officer commanding a division of troops." Now he would beg to refer the House on this point to another part of his right hon. friend's evidence, in pages 110 and 111.

Secretary, out of eight individuals, there were no less than seven military officers; two of them full Generals, two Lieutenantgenerals, and two Colonels. It was more like a Court-martial than a Board to consider the important subject of contracts for timbering guns, the price of pipe-clay, and other matters which came before the Board. The next evidence he should refer to was that of his gallant friend (Sir H. Hardinge); and what was the evidence he gave? The first question was- "Is the office of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance titular?" The anwer was, 66 No, he has duties to perform, which I conceive to be of a most important character." The next question he was asked was-"Does he attend the Board ?" The answer was"He ought to attend the Board, but he is at present employed in the command of the army in Portugal." "How have the duties of his department been performed in his absence?"-"I should say with very great inconvenience to the public service." He would request the House to consider, in conjunction with this answer, the statement of his gallant friend given in the opposite page-"I can state when I was at the Board, and Lord Beresford was absent, the Surveyor-general and myself being both military men, and assisted by the Duke of Wellington, did perform the duties of the Lieutenant-general, and I do not know that positive inconvenience resulted to the public from his absence." But he goes on" But I must say it was greatly inconvenient to myself and Lord"There is a sum of 1,6421. charged for a Downes, and those who performed those duties;" thus negativing the fact that the absence was productive of public inconvenience, and resolving it into a source of private inconvenience. The next question was "Did not the Commission of Military Inquiry recommend the abolition of that office?" This question seemed to have staggered his right hon. and gallant friend He answered "They did recommend the abolition of that office, but, I believe, with certain qualifications, and I also believe that they did not take the very best view of that subject." The gallant Officer then went on to detail the duties of the Lieutenant-general, as stated by the Duke of Wellington, respecting superintending the discharge of pensioners, the discipline of the corps at Woolwich, and he states, "the Lieutenant-general ought also to attend to the inspection of the men at Woolwich himself, to see that every soldier

Deputy Adjutant-general and Assistant of Staff, the two Aides-de-camp, and so on: was not that appointment first made in 1795, after the war had begun ?"—"I cannot state accurately what was the precise date, but the artillery requires the staff of a Deputy Adjutant-General for seven thousand men in as great a degree as any corps in the army would require a similar staff officer; and the artillery staff is, as compared with the force in men, smaller than that of the line." "Who fills that situation now ?"-"Sir Alexander Dickson." “You consider that that is necessary now, though in former peaces it did not exist ?"-"It is absolutely necessary; the routine of the roster of duty to be taken, the military police and discipline of the corps at Woolwich," his gallant friend added, with his usual force and adroitness, "in a great degree depend upon him, though under the orders of the

Ordnance Estimates. 1014 Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance." He | Lieutenant-general?" He (Sir J. Gra(Sir J. Graham) would only trouble the ham) requested the attention of the House with one further passage from this House to the answer given by his right evidence it was in page 38. His right hon. Friend to this question “The hon. Friend was asked- "If the Lieu- Master-general of the Ordnance has getenant-general has the discipline, what nerally been an officer of State, and a has the Master-general to do?"-" He has Cabinet Minister, giving, on questions the general superintendence of the whole which may arise, his military opinion; the department, military and civil, in all its Master-general is, as I have before stated branches, and a complete control over it, in the case of the Duke of Wellington, so much so, that he can order and direct liable to be sent away on the public serthe Board to do as he pleases, except in vice." This had been the case in former matters of money and account.' "Could instances. Lord Chatham, when Masternot he give directions respecting the disci- general, went with the expedition to pline of the corps, that which you consider Walcheren; Lord Cornwallis held the now to be the special duty of the Lieutenant- same office conjointly with that of Lordgeneral?" Here he would beg to remark lieutenant of Ireland. But at the preto the House the statement of the Duke sent moment, when the Master-general of Wellington, that he actually performed was not a Cabinet Minister, and when the functions of the Lieutenant-general there was no chance of his being called when Lord Beresford was in Portugal. upon foreign service, all the reasons here The answer of his gallant friend was,- alleged were futile. But he could not "I conceive that he might, if it is sup- help thinking that his right hon. Friend posed that the Master-general is to be contemplated a special case, when he always present." So that it was clear that added, "I conceive, if Lord Beresford, the Master-general was competent to the experienced as he is in the affairs of Porperformance of the duties of the Lieutenant- tugal-' experienced! (exclaimed the hon. general, and might perform them without Member) as the groans of the victims of inconvenience to the public service. The Don Miguel can testify, pining in the gallant Officer went on-" But the Lieu- dungeons of Portugal; experienced! as tenant-general has at the Board other those can testify who were forced to fly very important duties; all the military their native land’– -were to be called away questions come before him, such as the es- from his duties at the head of the Ordtimates for military works and fortifica- nance, and sent to Portugal, it would be tions; he has the whole of the military extremely hard that he should be obliged correspondence; for instance, if it is ne- to relinquish that situation, merely becessary to erect a barrack or a military cause he was found useful and efficient work, and we are in communication with for the service of the State; but having a the commander-in-chief, it would come Lieutenant, who in his absence can do his before him; he would assist the Board duty, justice can be done to the departwith his military opinion; we have be- ment and to the individual." If ever come a much more military department there was a case established by the very than we were before, since the transfer of evidence brought forward to defend it, but other departments, and at present there is which militated, in fact, against it, he a much greater necessity for a Lieutenant- thought that this was the case, and that general than formerly." If the depart- the direct converse was shown by the eviment has become much more military, let dence of the Duke of Wellington and his the House observe how much more mili- right hon. Friend. He (Sir J. Graham) tary the Board had become, consisting, as then came to the Report of the Commisit now did, of six military men and two sioners of Military Inquiry; and he would civilians. The last question he should first refer to the evidence of Lord Chatham quote was this-"If the Master-general before that Committee, a nobleman of were an efficient officer, applying his time whom, both on account of his name and and attention solely or principally to the talent, he could not speak with disrespect. business of the Ordnance, might not he Lord Chatham said, he considered the fulfil all those duties with respect to the office of Lieutenant-general of the Orddiscipline at Woolwich, and the general nance a link of the civil and military sersuperintendence of that department, which vice, and on that account essential to the you have described as now falling on the due performance of the duty of the Board,