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HANSARD'S

Parliamentary Debates

During the Fourth Session of the EighTI PARLIAMENT

of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and IRELAND, appointed to meet at Westminster the 4th of February, 1830, in the Eleventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty

GEORGE THE FOURTH.

(SECOND VOLUME OF THE SESSION.]

HOUSE OF LORDS.

collected in each Department, and the rate per cent at

which such collection was made :-of the Items of the Tuesday, March 9,1830.

Expenditure, including charges for conveyance out and

home, and for outfit, of the Diplomatic Consular EstablishMIỀUTES.) On the Motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY,

ment to the New States of South America, with the time an Address was presented to his Majesty, for a copy of the

of Residence of each Consul, since January 1st, 1825. second Report of the Commissioners for Inquiry into the

Notices were given by Sir JAMES GRAHAM, that, on Friday proceedings in Suits in the Superior Courts of Common

next, he would move for the following Return:--Of all Law.

Salaries, Profits, Pay, Fees, and Emoluments, whether On the Motion of the Earl of RosslyN, Lord ELLKN

Civil or Military, from 5th January, 1829, to the 5th BOROUGH's Divorce Bill, after Counsel had been heard, was

January, 1830, held and enjoyed by each Member of the read a second time.

Privy Council ; specifying the total amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the various sources

from which they were derived ; and also that, on Friday, HOUSE OF COMMONS.

before the House resolved itself into a Committee on the

Navy Estimates, he would move a Resolution respecting Tuesday, March 9.

the recent appointment of the Treasurer of the Navy. MINUTES.] MR. WARD took the Oaths and his Seat as Mem

Leave was obtained by Mr. Pouletr THOMSON, to bring in ber for Leominster.

a Bill to Amend the Laws relating to Usury. A Bill was Amounts were ordered, on the Motion of Mr. Hume, of Cot

brought in to regulate the Office of Sheriff' in Ireland. The tom Yam and Twists exported from this Country from 1826

Game Bill was read a second time. The Exchequer Bills to 1823, inclusive, together with their value, &c.:-of the

Bill, and the Transfer of Aids Bill were passed. The Four and a Half per Cent Duties on Goods imported into

Mutiny Bill went through a Committee. The Pensions and Barbadoes, and other neighbouring Colonies, which had

Duties Bill was read a first time. The Estimates of the before been laid on the Table, down to 1819, to be brought

Army Extraordinaries, Civil Contingencies, and expense down to the present time, with a view, as the hon. Mem

of the Commissariat Department were laid on the Table. ber said, of attempting to relieve the West Indies from

An humble Address was ordered to be presented to his Mathis charge, which they were quite unable to bear :-Of the

jesty, for a copy of the Commission issued for Inquiry into persons employed in Commissions of Inquiry in the year

the Ecclesiastical Courts of England and Wales: also for 1829, of the Balances paid them, of the Expenses of the

an Account of the Expenditure, including Charges of Con. Commissions and of the Reports made to the House.

veyance and outfit for Diplomatic and Insular EstablishOn the Motion of Colonel SIBTHORP, Accounts were

ments in the New States of America. ordered, of all Persons in the Civil and Military Establishsituations, or receiving two or more pensions or" allow HERRING FISHERY – SCOTLAND.] ances, in the year 1829, with the name, date, &c.:-of all Mr.Cutlar Fergusson, in presenting a PeOffices, Pensions, Fecs, and Allowances of any kind, held tition from the Magistrates and others of in Reversion ; with the names of the occupant, the reversioner, the date, and the particulars.

Cromarty, engaged in the cure of Herrings, On the Motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, of the Names and

ofices of all Persons now employed in the respective praying for the continuance of the bounty Civil Departments of the United Kingdom, whose Salaries

on that branch of industry, stated that and Emoluments exceed 2501. per annum : shewing the the people engaged in this trade, by aid of compensation amount in 1815 and 1829; the grounds on this bounty had been enabled to carry it which increase, if any, had been made, and giving the date of that increase :-of the Net Amount of the Revenue on, and that it nourished 48,000 seaVOL. XXIII. {n.s.}

B

men, as hardy as any in Britain. If it | ants of Merthyr-Tydvil, complaining of
were withdrawn, these men would be in- great distress, said that the petitioners had
able to obtain a living. Many of them, so little business, and profits were so low,
too, had been driven from their former that they were hardly able to exist. The
dwellings by its having been found expe- manufacturers and artizans having barely
pedient to appropriate the land to a dif- the necessaries of life, the shopkeepers
ferent purpose, and they had found a re- and tradesmen were suffering most se-
source from starvation in this fishery, verely, and many of them had no business
He did not suppose it would be necessary at all. The petitioners prayed for a re-
for him to point out to the House the in- duction of taxation, as the only means of
portance, in a national point of view, of relief. He could bear his testimony to the
our fisheries as forming a nursery for our truth of the petition, but he was bound to
seamen ; but he must say, it would be add that he believed the pressure would
very impolitic were the Government to speedily pass away. He would enter into
embrace any policy which would drive further particulars did he not anticipate a
these men from our shores, and compel better opportunity for doing so when the
them to seek a home and employment in hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne
a foreign land. He was well aware of the brought forward his motion,
theory on which these bounties were with- Sir Christopher Cole bore his testimony
drawn; but he must say, practically speak to the severe sufferings of the petitioners,
ing, to turn such a body of men from our and at the same time said, they had, in
shores, at a time when France and Holland the midst of all their sufferings, displayed
were encouraging their commerce to the invariable loyalty and good conduct. He
utmost of their power, was neither politic was happy, however, to say, that there had
nor wise. It was breaking up our naval of late been a gradual improvement in the
militia. The petitioners stated, that the trade of that part of the country,
bounty would not be wholly lost to Petition read and printed.
the state, but repaid in the shape of Lord Althorp presented a Petition from
various taxes, which, without this bounty, the Grand Jury of the County of North-
they would be unable to pay, and unable ampton, complaining of the sums of
to get a living. The petitioners prayed money paid for passing Irish and Scotch
that the Government would at least con- Vagrants. It was difficult, his Lordship
tinue a part of the bounty, for if it were said, to credit the expense to which pa-
all withdrawn, they declared that it would rishes were subject on this account. A
be utterly unable for them to carry on single parish, in 1825, paid 7971. for the
their business. On a subject of so much purpose; in 1828 it paid 6881., and last
importance, he hoped he might be ex- year 7771. If by this expense those paupers
cused if he earnestly called on the House were permanently removed, so
and the Government to give it their serious again to become a burthen, it might be
consideration.

borne, but it unfortunately happened that

the same expense was incurred, year after AGRICULTURAL Distress.] Sir William year, in passing the same identical paupers, Rowley, in presenting Petitions from several who amused themselves apparently travelHundreds in Suffolk, praying for the re- ling through the country at the expense mission of the Duties on Malt and Beer, of the different parishes. Some legislastated that the petitioner, in common with tive provision was, he thought, necessary all the agriculturists, were suffering under on this subject, and he hoped hon. Memvast distress, which they said was much en- bers would attend to it. hanced by the Duties on Malt and Beer Mr. Cartwright stated, that he fully pressing particularly on them, by pre-concurred in what had fallen from the venting the consumption of Barley. He noble Lord, and agreed with him that earnestly prayed, that the Government some remedy ought to be applied to this would give ear to the petitioners, and give evil. The necessity of passing vagrants relief to the Agricultural Interest, by re- caused an enormous expense to parishes. pealing these and other burthens.

Mr. Greene concurred in this repre

sentation of the evil. In the absence of DISTRESS IN THE IRON TRADE.) Mr. a noble Lord (Stanley), he begged to say Alderman Thompson, in presenting a Pe that it was his intention to bring some tition signed by 400 respectable inhabit measure respecting this subject under the

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notice of the House at an early day. He other class of vagrants he should like to knew of one parish in Lancashire which see transported to Ireland. He meant was subject, on this account, to an annual the rich vagrants, who collected their expense of nearly 3,0001.

rents in that country, to spend them in Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, that there foreign lands. was abundant proof of the expense occa

Mr. Littleton said, that he did not sioned by Irish vagrants; but he knew no think the case of the Irish vagrants was examples of money thus spent in the con- quite what the hon. and learned Member veyance of Scotch vagrants. Scotland for Clare represented it. They did not benewould be glad to maintain her own va- fit the country one-half so much by their grants, if she had none others to support, i labour as they injured it by the excessive but she was burthened to a great extent competition they introduced, and the with the expense of supporting Irish paupers their system of working created. paupers.

He could assert, that they were a real Mr. Munday expressed his satisfaction, grievance to the central counties. Stafthat an evil which had long been seriously fordshire alone had paid 2,0001. a-year felt in many parts of the country, had at for the expenses of their removal, and the length attracted the attention of the sum was increasing. He trusted the hon. House, and he hoped that the committee, Member for Lancaster would soon submit for which he understood the noble Lord to the House some measure to remedy meant to move, might devise some remedy. this evil.

Sir James Graham said, he could in- Mr. George Dawson said, that injustice form bis hon. friend the Member for Kir- was often committed towards Ireland in cudbright, that the expense of passing removing thither the female vagrants with Scotch paupers was very considerable in whom the men had formed connections in the county which he represented.

this country. With regard to Scotland, Mr. C. Davenport could also inform he could show that invitations were often the House, that where he resided, the ex-sent over to Ireland for labourers to go to pense of passing Scotch and Irish pau' ers Scotland, where they were wanted to unwas very great, and he would give his derwork the active labourers of the soil, strenuous support to any measure for re- and they were then sent back in a very lieving the country from this enormous miserable condition, after they had served expense.

the purposes of those who had called them Sir M. W. Ridley also asserted, that the over. expense of passing Scotch vagrants was Mr. Cutlar Fergusson observed, that very considerable, and which fell very the hon. Gentleman must be mistaken, as heavy in some of the northern counties. Scotland unfortunately possessed no power Where he resided it was very severely of sending back the vagrants to their own felt, and would, he was afraid, continue as country. That was the great defect in long as the practice was continued of her law. In one county alone there had banishing men from Scotland. Whether been 40,000 Irish paupers.

He repeated that were a punishment or not to the in- what he had before said, that Scotland dividuals he would not say, but it was would gladly maintain her own poor if she a severe infliction for the northern parts had no others to support. In reply to his of England which had to pay for the hon. friend, the Member for Cumberland, passing and repassing of these banished he would say that he did not assert that Scotchmen.

there were no Scotch vagrants in England, Mr. O'Connell thought, that if Irish va- but only that the number was small

. grants were to be driven from this country, Mr. Griffith said, the hon. and learned their deportation should be provided for Member for Clare was mistaken in the at the expense, not of the country to way in which he had spoken of the Irish which they were going, but of that in 'vagrants. Our great evil was, that as which they had spent their life, and en- soon as they had been sent back to Ireriched by their labour. It would be cruel land they came back again, and out of a on those men, after having spent their large number very few would at any time youth in the service of England, to send be found who had not been in this counthem back in their old age to starve in 'try before. They made a trade of this Ireland, or be a burthen on a land they passing and repassing between the two had voluntarily quitted. There was an- countries.

source

men, as hardy as any in Britain. If itants of Merthyr-Tydvil, complaining of were withdrawn, these men would be un- great distress, said that the petitioners had able to obtain a living. Many of them, so little business, and profits were so low, too, had been driven from their former that they were hardly able to exist. The dwellings by its having been found expe- manufacturers and artizans having barely pedient to appropriate the land to a dif- the necessaries of life, the shopkeepers ferent purpose, and they had found a re- and tradesmen were suffering most se

from starvation in this fishery, verely, and many of them had no business He did not suppose it would be necessary at all. The petitioners prayed for a refor him to point out to the House the im- duction of taxation, as the only means of portance, in a national point of view, of relief. He could bear his testimony to the our fisheries as forming a nursery for our truth of the petition, but he was bound to seamen ; but he must say, it would be add that he believed the pressure would very impolitic were the Government to speedily pass away. He would enter into embrace any policy which would drive further particulars did he not anticipate a these men from our shores, and compel better opportunity for doing so when the them to seek a home and employment in hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne a foreign land. He was well aware of the brought forward his motion. theory on which these bounties were with- Sir Christopher Cole bore his testimony drawn; but he must say, practically speak to the severe sufferings of the petitioners, ing, to turn such a body of men from our and at the same time said, they had, in shores, at a time when France and Holland the midst of all their sufferings, displayed were encouraging their commerce to the invariable loyalty and good conduct. He utmost of their power, was neither politic was happy, however, to say, that there had nor wise. It was breaking up our naval of late been a gradual improvement in the militia. The petitioners stated, that the trade of that part of the country. bounty would not be wholly lost to Petition read and printed. the state, but repaid in the shape of Lord Althorp presented a Petition from various taxes, which, without this bounty, the Grand Jury of the County of Norththey would be unable to pay, and unable ampton, complaining of the sums of to get a living. The petitioners prayed money paid for passing Irish and Scotch that the Government would at least con- Vagrants. It was difficult, his Lordship tinue a part of the bounty, for if it were said, to credit the expense to which paall withdrawn, they declared that it would rishes were subject on this account. A be utterly unable for them to carry on single parish, in 1825, paid 7971. for the their business. On a subject of so much purpose; in 1828 it paid 6881., and last importance, he hoped he might be ex- year 7771. If by this expense those paupers cused if he earnestly called on the House were permanently removed, so as and the Government to give it their serious again to become a burthen, it might be consideration.

borne, but it unfortunately happened that

the same expense was incurred, year after AGRICULTURAL Distress.] Sir William year, in passing the same identical paupers, Rowley, in presenting Petitions from several who amused themselves apparently travelHundreds in Suffolk, praying for the re- ling through the country at the expense mission of the Duties on Malt and Beer, of the different parishes. Some legislastated that the petitioner, in common with tive provision was, he thought, necessary all the agriculturists, were suffering under on this subject, and he hoped hon. Memvast distress, which they said was much en-bers would attend to it. hanced by the Duties on Malt and Beer Mr. Cartwright stated, that he fully pressing particularly on them, by pre-concurred in what had fallen from the venting the consumption of Barley. He noble Lord, and agreed with him that earnestly prayed, that the Government some remedy ought to be applied to this would give ear to the petitioners, and give evil. The necessity of passing vagrants relief to the Agricultural Interest, by re- caused an enormous expense to parishes. pealing these and other burthens.

Mr. Greene concurred in this repre

sentation of the evil. In the absence of DISTRESS IN THE IRON Trade.] Mr. a noble Lord (Stanley), he begged to say Alderman Thompson, in presenting a Pe- that it was his intention to bring some tition signed by 400 respectable inhabit- | measure respecting this subject under the

not

notice of the House at an early day. He other class of vagrants he should like to knew of one parish in Lancashire which see transported to Ireland. He meant was subject, on this account, to an annual the rich vagrants, who collected their expense of nearly 3,0001.

rents in that country, to spend them in Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, that there foreign lands. was abundant proof of the expense occa- Mr. Littleton said, that he did not sioned by Irish vagrants; but he knew no think the case of the Irish vagrants was examples of money thus spent in the con- quite what the hon. and learned Member veyance of Scotch vagrants. Scotland for Clare represented it. They did not benewould be glad to maintain her own va- fit the country one-half so much by their grants, if she had none others to support, labour as they injured it by the excessive but she was burthened to a great extent competition they introduced, and the with the expense of supporting Irish paupers their system of working created. paupers.

He could assert, that they were a real Mr. Munday expressed his satisfaction, grievance to the central counties. Stafthat an evil which had long been seriously fordshire alone had paid 2,0001. a-year felt in many parts of the country, had at for the expenses of their removal, and the length attracted the attention of the sum was increasing. He trusted the hon. House, and he hoped that the committee, Member for Lancaster would soon submit for which he understood the noble Lord to the House some measure to remedy meant to move, might devise some remedy. this evil.

Sir James Graham said, he could in- Mr. Gcorge Dawson said, that injustice form his hon, friend the Member for Kir- was often committed towards Ireland in cudbright, that the expense of passing removing thither the female vagrants with Scotch paupers was very considerable in whom the men had formed connections in the county which he represented. this country. With regard to Scotland,

Mr. C. Davenport could also inform he could show that invitations were often the House, that where he resided, the ex- sent over to Ireland for labourers to go to pense of passing Scotch and Irish pausers Scotland, where they were wanted to unwas very great, and he would give his derwork the active labourers of the soil, strenuous support to any measure for re- and they were then sent back in a very lieving the country from this enormous miserable condition, after they had served expense.

the purposes of those who had called them Sir M. W. Ridley also asserted, that the over. expense of passing Scotch vagrants was Mr. Cutlar Fergusson observed, that very considerable, and which fell very the hon. Gentleman must be mistaken, as heavy in some of the northern counties. Scotland unfortunately possessed no power Where he resided it was very severely of sending back the vagrants to their own felt, and would, he was afraid, continue as country. That was the great defect in long as the practice was continued of her law. In one county alone there had banishing men from Scotland. Whether been 40,000 Irish paupers. He repeated that were a punishment or not to the in- what he had before said, that Scotland dividuals he would not say, but it was would gladly maintain her own poor if she a severe infliction for the northern parts had no others to support. In reply to his of England which had to pay for the hon. friend, the Member for Cumberland, passing and repassing of these banished he would say that he did not assert that Scotchmen.

there were no Scotch vagrants in England, Mr. O'Connell thought, that if Irish va- but only that the number was small. grants were to be driven from this country, Mr. Griffith said, the hon. and learned their deportation should be provided for Member for Clare was mistaken in the at the expense, not of the country to way in which he had spoken of the Irish which they were going, but of that in vagrants. Our great evil was, that as which they had spent their life, and en- soon as they had been sent back to Ireriched by their labour. It would be cruel land they came back again, and out of a on those men, after having spent their large number very few would at any time youth in the service of England, to send be found who had not been in this counthem back in their old age to starve in try before. They made a trade of this Ireland, or be a burthen on a land they passing and repassing between the two had voluntarily quitted. There was an- countries.

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