ginia I have never had any means of ascertaining. I know that the vote against it was very small, because in the city of Richmond, which had given me some seventeen or eighteen hundred votes against my competitor, and could therefore, I suppose, have given some fifteen or sixteen hundred votes against the ordinance of secession, actually gave only two votes against it. To illustrate the farce and mockery of the vote taken at that time, I will mention that there were assembled at that time a large body of troops at and around Norfolk, among them a regiment then commanded by Colonel Roger A. Pryor. This regiment was composed principally, if not entirely, of Union men, and when it was found they were voting against the ordinance, they were disbanded and not allowed to vote. This was the statement frequently made, and I have never heard contradicted, and I believe it to be

true.

Question. What is the present feeling of the ex-rebels in Virginia generally towards the government of the United States?

Answer. At the time of the surrender of General Lee's army and the restoration of peace I think there was, not only a general, but an almost universal, acquiescence and congratulation among the people that the war had terminated, and a large majority of them were at least contented, if not gratified, that it had terminated by a restoration of the State to the Union. At that time the leaders, too, seemed to have been entirely subdued. They had become satisfied that Mr. Lincoln was a noble, kind-hearted, generous man, from whom they had little to fear; but when he was assassinated, and Mr. Johnson took his place, they remembered Mr. Johnson's declarations in the Senate of the United States before the war, his own treatment during the war by the secession party, and his declarations after he came to Washton as the Vice-President of the United States, in one or more speeches, but especially in a speech in which he declared that treason was a crime which must be punished. They felt exceedingly apprehensive for the security of their property, as well as for the security of their lives; and a more humble, unpretending set of gentlemen I never saw than they were at that time. But from the time that Mr. Johnson commenced his indiscriminate system of pardoning all who made application, and from impositions which, I have no doubt, were practiced upon Mr. Johnson in pardoning the worst class of secessionists among the first, they became bold, insolent, and defiant; and this was increased to a very large extent by the permission which was, immediately after the evacuation of Richmond, given by General Patrick, the democratic copperhead provost marshal of the army of the Potomac, to the original conductors of the public press before the rebellion to re-establish their papers, I be lieve, without restriction or limitation, upon any of the proprietors; since which time, I think, the spirit of disloyalty and disaffection has gone on increasing day by day, and hour by hour, until among the leaders generally there is as much disaffection and disloyalty as there was at any time during the war, and a hundred-fold more than there was immediately after the evacuation and the surrender of the army. This is the conclusion to which my mind has been brought by the licentiousness of the press, and by communications which are made to me from all parts of the State, either verbally or by letter, from the most prominent and reliable Union sources. If I were to judge from anything I have ever heard personally from these gentlemen, I should not think there was any very great difference between their loyalty and yours or mine; but I hear of it elsewhere, and I see evidence of it daily, not only in the public press, but in the proceedings of the so-called legislature of the State. It is no more a body of legislature than we compose one here now. I believe if the leaders and the public press could be restrained in their expressions and inculcations of disloyalty, with the masses of the people we should have no trouble whatever. As indicative of the character of the letters I often receive, I give you the following extract of a letter from a prominent Union man of the State, received last night:

"As an individual, and I think not a very timid one, I have no hopes of future loyalty unless the President and Congress can relieve the masses of the political incubus now weighing them to the ground. Hour after hour the democracy here are becoming more bold, more intolerant, more proscriptive. Was the war in all its horrid consequences designed to establish a democratic oligarchy here in the south and eventually turn over the general government with all its patronage and power to this pack of bloodhounds? Or was it designed to preserve the Union, maintain liberty, and wipe out forever all sectional parties? If for the former, then the prevailing policy will soon effect it; and when it does, I pray that God will cause a universal earthquake and blot out that portion of his footstool comprised within the United States. Under democratic rule again, hell would be a garden of Eden com pared to the southern States, and I should assuredly select it as a permanent place of abode if forced to choose between the two."

In this latter conclusion I think I should rather dissent from my friend. Bad as democratic rule is, I would rather bear the ills we have than fly to others that we know not of. But it is bad enough in all conscience; and from the tone of that and other letters, of a similar character to a great extent, received from different parts of the State, and conversations which I have had with gentlemen from every portion of the State, whose opinions are reliable and trustworthy, there must be, I conclude, a very intolerable state of things existing.

Question. Have you any reason to believe that there are in existence now, among the leaders of the late rebellion, any schemes, secret or open, for renewing the war or again asserting the principle of secession?

Answer. I have no idea that there is any purpose of renewing the war, without money, without arms, without men, and without materials of war; but that there are many political leaders who, in the event of a war with any foreign power, would throw every obstacle and every impediment in the way of the success of the United States, if they did not join that foreign power outright, I can entertain no doubt, from all the representations which have been made to me by those who have heard such opinions expressed, although I have heard no such opinion expressed in my presence.

Question. In the event of a war between the United States and any foreign power, such as France or England, and under circumstances which would seem to hold out a fair hope of success on the part of the rebels, would you anticipate that many of them would join the army of the enemy against the United States?

Answer. I have no reason to suppose that the enemy would be joined by any except some of the more reckless and mortified, chagrined political leaders, and who claim that their vocation exempts them from participating in the fight, and who would always be able to carry with them a portion of the masses who have been for so many years under their influence, if not under their absolute control; but among the officers of the late rebel army, and among the masses of the people, who do the fighting as a general thing, I have no reason to believe that any such feeling exists. I believe that the most constant and earnest prayer of many of these political leaders is that the United States shall be involved in a foreign war; and they hope for it from some indiscretion on the part of the civil authorities in Washington, or from some inadvertent step that may be taken by the military authorities on the Rio Grande. Question. You would regard the southern States in their present condition and with their present feeling towards the United States as a source of weakness to the government, and not of strength, in the event of a foreign war?

Answer. I should consider those who manage the affairs of state, generally, as very unsafe custodians of the public liberty or the public interests, and that you would be a great deal better off if they were in France instead of in this country.

Question. You are acquainted with the proposed amendment of the Constitution now pending in the Senate of the United States?

Answer. I understand it.

Question. What is your opinion about any of the southern States ever adopting that amendment by their legislature?

Answer. I have no idea that any one of them would in the present temper of the public mind.

Question. Is it probable that they would during future ages?

Answer. Oh, yes; I think that the fact of the slaves being emancipated will lead to their ultimate education and improvement and fit them for the exercise of qualified suffrage in the course of years, and that then the States would be very glad to avail themselves of the increased representation which could be based on that population, but not now.

Question. Is it practicable in Virginia, either by act of legislation or by an amendment of her constitution, to restrict the right of suffrage in the case of white persons; for instance, to introduce a property qualification or an intelligence qualification?

Answer. I think there is a very general desire to do it, and for the reason that I think that class of voters which would be excluded constitutes by far the most loyal portion of the State-the men who have seen service and have had enough of war.

Question. Would those who might be excluded vote for it?

Answer. No: but the leaders would adopt a constitution without submitting it to the people in order to get rid of them.

Question. How would it be in regard to numbers; would they have numbers enough to adopt such a restriction?

Answer. Of course a very large majority of the people have been involved in the rebellion. Question. Is there any contemplated purpose to hold a convention in Virginia?

Answer. I have been informed by many persons, embracing members of the present socalled legislature of Virginia, that it was the purpose of some leaders of that body, before they adjourned, to call a convention which would, under regulations to be adopted by the legislature, insure an overwhelming majority of those persons who sympathized with or participated in the war, which would lead to the most violent proscription that they dared to practice toward all Union and loyal men who had not participated in the war, as has been exhibited by the action of that body now in session, in removing from office every loyal man whom they could reach, and putting in their places men who had no other recommendation than their sympathy for, or participation in, the rebellion. Their purpose is supposed to be, if he has not more wisdom than to lend his assent to it, to place General Robert E. Lee, who was at the head of the rebellion, in the gubernatorial chair. This was indicated by an expression of Mr. John B. Baldwin, of whom we have been speaking, and who is now speaker of the house of delegates, when he descended from his chair a short time back, on the election of a subordinate officer, and declared that he hoped the day was near at hand when General Robert E. Lee would fill that position; which, the papers stated, was received with great pplause, both in the galleries and on the floor.

Question. How are Unionists treated generally in the State, whether native Unionists or rties from other States which have come there?

Answer. During the war they were treated generally with great unkindness by the government, and there were a great many political prisoners kept in the same prison house, or negro jail, with me; they were treated very harshly and unkindly, Since the rebellion, I have known of no instance of actual violence having been resorted to on the part of any portion of our people towards any Union man, whether of northern or southern birth; but there is a social ban put upon them; there is scarcely a recognition of acquaintanceship, to say nothing of friendly feeling, on the part of secessionists and their families towards the Union people in the cities. And when the officers now stationed at Richmond, under command of General Terry, have, on several occasions, given social parties, or "hops" as they are called, with the hope and for the purpose of introducing a better state of feeling among these two classes of people, the parties were not only not attended by the ladies of Richmond generally, but even those of Union families seemed to be apprehensive of presenting themselves at such places, because of the effect it would produce on their social position, and because it was the custom of a part of the press of the city to attach ridicule and discredit to every lady who attended these parties, and who were mentioned by name. There is a good deal more of this feeling in the cities than in the country. In my immediate neighborhood there is not a great deal of it.

Question. How much chance does a Union man stand in your State courts to obtain justice?

Answer. Well, sir, I have no reason, from anything that has yet transpired there, to think that the courts would not do justice to a Union man. I think it would create a decidedly unfavorable effect upon the standing and character of any magistrate upon the bench who would be supposed to be influenced by such a consideration.

Question. How would it be with the juries?

Answer. Well, sir, I have nothing to do with the courts, and cannot speak with any certainty on that subject further than this: I received a letter from a gentleman a short time since, who was not personally known to me, but who represented himself to be a native Virginian, a refugee during the war, and to be now connected with the Freedmen's Bureau in Staunton, saying that they had gotten up a memorial in Augusta county, which had been signed by some five hundred of the most respectable people of the county, asking that Congress should require that, in all cases coming before the courts in which Union men were concerned, they should be transferred to a military court, for the reason that a Union man could not obtain justice in the State courts, and asking me whether, if that memorial was sent to me, I would indorse it; to which I replied that I could not promise my indorsement to a paper which I had not seen, and without knowing the character of the persons who had signed the memorial; but that, if he thought proper to send his memorial to me, I would give it the proper direction, and let the parties to whom it was sent make those inquiries for themselves.

Question. What is the political character of the present legislature of Virginia? Answer. My opinion is, from observations made during my recent visit to Richmond, that that body is composed of a majority of respectable, orderly, intelligent farmers, and others who have not heretofore had any experience in legislation, who are wholly unaccustomed to meeting in debate with practiced politicians and lawyers of reputation, and that, although they constitute, if they had any organization among themselves, a majority of conservative men, yet from the want of that organization, and from the want of a leader, they suffer themselves to be carried away on every question of party interest by a few leading and designing politicians on the other side. I found gentlemen, when I went there, sitting side by side, day by day, who knew nothing of the political sentiments of each other. I think that if the people at the elections in October last meant any one thing more particularly than another, it was that they were tired of the misrule to which they had been so long subjected, and for which they had paid so dearly by the results of the war, and were determined, so far as their action was concerned, to place the control of the government in safer and better hands, but that their views and desires had been entirely frustrated, from the causes I have already mentioned.

Question. What is the general feeling of the white people of Virginia in regard to the education of the blacks?

Answer. I think that the more intelligent classes of the people would be very glad to see information and education diffused among the blacks, as being calculated not only to benefit their own condition, but to make them better citizens among themselves.

Question. Would they consent to contribute of their own means to educate the blacks? Answer. There are a great many who would, and a great many who would not. I think, as a general thing, however, that it would be a difficult matter to get up a very large subscription for that purpose.

Question. I mean in the form of legislation and taxation.

Answer. That comes in a different shape, and men do not feel it so sensibly as when i comes directly out of their pockets.

Question. Do they generally feel kindly towards the freedmen, and willing to allow hi the privileges of his industry?

Answer. I think that among the educated, well-informed, and better classes of the peop there is a disposition to do them justice. But there are other classes with whom, as a m

ter of course, there are very strong prejudices existing, which time alone can probably cure, and which may be increased or diminished according to circumstances. I think that one of the great difficulties in Virginia, in regard to the colored people, arises from the organization of the Freedmen's Bureau-not that the Freedmen's Bureau is not in itself a proper, and perhaps in some localities an indispensable institution, but that it stands very greatly in need of reformation.

Question. In its administration?

Answer. In its administration, and in its officers. I have heard of a great many difficulties and outrages which have proceeded in some instances. if the truth has been represented to me, from the ignorance and fanaticism of persons connected with the Freedmen's Bureau, who do not understand anything of the true relation of the original master to the slave, and who have, in many instances, held out promises and inducements which can never be realized to the negroes, which have made them entirely indifferent to work, and sometimes illbehaved. On the other hand, there are many of the persons connected with the Freedmen's Bureau who have conducted themselves with great propriety and where that has been so there has been no difficulty between the whites and blacks that I know of.

Question. Do you think that the liberality of President Johnson, in granting pardons and amnesties, and using other measures, which appertain to him personally, towards the rebel community, has had a greater tendency to restore peace and harmony there, than the contrary?

Answer. Very far from it. I think that if Mr. Johnson had held his pardons up until the State was reorganized and placed in the hands of the loyal men of the State, there would have been no difficulty; but they have seemed to think, when they got the pardons, that they not only had the penalties of death and confiscation of property remitted to them, but that they were restored to all their political rights, State constitution and congressional enactments to the contrary notwithstanding, which were all overridden and trampled down by Mr. Johnson's pardons. Mr. Johnson has said, in his recent interview with the delegation from the Virginia legislature, that he thought if there were five thousand loyal men, or even a smaller number, in a State, they were entitled to exercise a controlling influence over that State in its legislation, in which I entirely concur with him. But Mr. Johnson's opinions on that subject do not help the loyal men much unless he will help to put them on the track, when they will keep the machinery in motion.

Question. The difference being the difference between saying and doing?

Answer. If he will carry that view into effect, to the extent of his civil and military power, they will bring the State back to its proper moorings, but they can do nothing without either the aid of Mr. Johnson or of the law-making power of the United States.

Question. Do you think of anything else that you wish to state to the committee?

Answer. I should like to say that I think Mr. Johnson has been actuated in his policy by too much confidence and liberality towards people who did not appreciate it, and did not meet it in the spirit in which his liberality was tendered, and that the sooner he retraces his steps, so far as is possible, in that particular, in holding out hopes of aid from him to those who have brought all these calamities upon the country, the better it will be for himself, the better for the south, and the better for the nation.

WASHINGTON, D. C., February 15, 1866.

Colonel Orlando Brown sworn and examined.

By Mr. HOWARD:

Question. Where do you reside?

Answer. My home is in Massachusetts.

Question. Where have you been recently residing?

Answer. I have been residing since the 15th of June in Richmond, Virginia. Previous to that time I had resided in Norfolk. I had been on duty in Norfolk since February, 1862.

Question. What official position do you hold?

Answer. Assistant commissioner in the Bureau of Freedmen, Refugees, and Abandoned Lands.

Question. And as such you have been stationed at Richmond?

Answer. Yes.

Question How do you find the state of feeling in Richmond towards the freedmen? How are they treated?

Answer. There is a disposition on the part of citizens to secure, as far as possible, the same control over the freedmen by contracts which they possessed when they held them as

slaves.

Question. Is there much ill-feeling towards the freedmen in that vicinity?

Answer. I hardly know how to answer that question. It seems to me more a feeling of irritation, perhaps, than of hatred. They seemed disposed to regard the freedmen almost universally as unfit to care for themselves. They think that a wrong has been done them in

taking their slaves. They have not lost the feeling that they have a right to hold slaves, and they are not disposed-a large number of them-to forgive the negro for being free. But, on the other hand, there is a class-numerically small, but comprising some of the ablest and best men in the State-who are disposed to acknowledge them as free and to treat them as free men.

Question. Do they entertain generally an expectation that they will get pay for their slaves?

Answer. No, sir; I think not. In a few instances I have heard men who have been loyal throughout express that expectation, that they were entitled to compensation for their slaves. Question. Are the freedmen willing to work generally for fair wages?

Answer. Yes, sir; for what any northern man would consider fair wages.

Question. Is there a disposition on the part of their white employers to allow them fair, living wages?

Answer. That disposition might exist if they had the means. They have not the means to allow them what would be considered living wages-wages to support a man and his family. It is unnecessary to say that they are wholly exhausted. A great deal of the land in Virginia is very poor, and on that poor land the farmer cannot afford to pay more than ten dollars per month to a laborer, even with the disposition to pay more. There is little other business in the State than agriculture.

Question. Do you find an abundance of money and personal property down there in Virginia among the secessionists?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. What is the state of things in that respect?

Answer. Most of the State having been overrun by our troops, the fences destroyed, the farming utensils used up during the war, the currency that they had worthless, and not being able to collect their notes, they have not the means to carry on agricultural pursuits so as to afford to pay the freedmen.

Question. Are they sufficiently supplied with horses, mules, &c.?

Answer. No, sir; they are not, although large numbers have been supplied by our army. Question. Do you not find there great destitution in point of stock?

Answer. Yes, sir. Some of the best land on the James river will remain uncultivated this season because the owners have not the means to buy stock, hire laborers, buy tools, seeds, &c., and put the land under cultivation.

Question. How is it with the whites? Do they go to work individually and try to retrieve their fortunes, or do they lead a lazy, idle life?

Answer. I do not think they have fully settled yet what they will do.

Question. Do they go to work as our people at the north do?

Answer. No, sir; it is not in them to go to work as our people at the north. They have not so much energy.

Question. As a general thing, they and work do not particularly agree?

Answer. No, sir. As for manual labor, that is out of the question. The owners of plantations are not disposed to go to work with their hands; but they are being forced to do it, and they do it very unwillingly. They choose that rather than suffer.

Question. Is that generally the case wherever you have been acquainted among the farming community?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. How much loyalty is there down there in Richmond, and how are loyal people treated?

Answer. If you mean a willing submission to the government

Question. I mean loyalty in its general acceptation, a friendship for the government under which they live, and a disposition to uphold and maintain it.

Answer. They consider themselves in the Union by compulsion. A majority of them think that the cause they fought for was just; that in failing to accomplish their object they have been defrauded of their just rights, and that they had a right to secede. That sentiment has been expressed to me a great many times.

Question. Do you hear among them many regrets for having taken up arms against Uncle Sam?

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Answer. Not so much as regret at the result. That seems to be the cause of regret. Governor Wise says he has been for the Union all through, and he adds: ceeded, we would have shown you what the Union was.' He said to me a day or two ago, "I never fought under the confederate flag. It may have been carried in my brigade; but I have gone under the Virginia flag." And he showed me his buttons, Virginia buttons, which he said he had worn ail through the war.

Question. Is there generally prevalent down there a feeling of disaffection or dislike towards the government of the United States?

Answer. Yes, sir, I think there is.

Question. In what class is it strongest?

Answer. I think in the higher class. The lower classes, I think, are thankful to be out of the war under any consideration.