allow the hon. Gentleman to taunt those who held these views with going before the Committee, and not having a shadow of ground for the opinion they entertained. He was ready to admit it was a difficult subject-that it was an open question, and if the result of this Commission was the introduction of a Bill, he very much doubted whether it would be possible to guard against frauds. It was very doubtful indeed, whether, in the present state of trade in this country, any fresh stimulus to enterprise was required. Another point to be considered was, that they might have great commercial companies established with limited liability, and that there was great danger of these large companies underselling and crushing all the small traders.

Gentleman was treading on rather tender business. He did not mean to have said ground when he alluded to the arbitrary anything on this question, but could not dictation of the employment of capital. He must have forgotten that he himself had, on more than one occasion, been a party to prescribing the manner in which there should be an employment of capital for particular purposes. And then the hon. Gentleman was for perfect freedom of capital. He would tell the hon. Gentleman, who said no argument had been brought forward on that side, that limited liability might be defended in one country, and in one state of the circulation of capital, and might not be wanted in another. They might have France, where there was plenty of capital, but a limited spirit of enterprise, and where people would not embark their capital in business without limited liability; or they might have America, where there was unlimited enterprise, but limited capital; and then came the want of the union of capital contributed from a variety of quarters for purposes of commerce; and there partnerships with limited liability might prove useful. But in this country they surely had enough of capital, and no want of enterprise; and if he were to say why we did not require limited liability, he would ask whether the competition in every branch of trade and commerce was not so great as to have reduced profits to the lowest scale; and whether they could have any better proof that there was no want of the diffusion of capital than the very small profits that existed? The hon. Gentleman said, "Marry capital with enterprise; take some fat easy man, with plenty of money, and join him with one or more active men of business who has plenty of enterprise." He was afraid, however, the fruits of that legitimate union would not be so favourable to trade as the hon. Gentleman supposed. He rather believed that when a man with no money united in this way with a rich man, the poor partner having only skill and enterprise, and no capital to lose, the rich man having money but no responsibility in the business, and no character to lose, the result would be that in cases of failure the man whose character was at stake lost no money, and the man whose money was at stake had still an unblemished character. What was necessary for credit in this country was, that the man with the money should be responsible for the character of the business; and they ought never to do away with that which fixed in the right quarter that amount of censure which to a certain degree attached to the man that failed in

MR. TRELAWNY said, he had read the blue book on the subject, and was of opinion that it was one which ought to be approached with great caution. There was, however, an instance in which the principle of limited liability was in actual operation to a great extent. In Cornwall, under what was called the cost-book principle, thousands of shares in mines were held without any liability beyond their amount, and were transferred with facility. This system had been at work in that part of England for years, was generally well understood, and was not found to have occasioned any evil. His opinion was, that, if a Commission were appointed, it ought also to inquire into the banking laws, because the subject, as limited by the terms of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury's Motion, was apt to lead the working classes to form expectations of millennial happiness which could never be realised. was, at the present time, too much already of this spirit abroad; and it was owing, he believed, in a great degree, to the manner in which certain subjects were debated in that House. Protectionism, for instance, was a sort of socialism in disguise, founded on the doctrine that it was necessary to foster one trade because it was better than other trades-an idea analogous to that of socialist co-operation-as much so as the doctrines of Louis Blanc or Cabet. The House fostered socialist views too much, and then wondered at the fruits that they produced. The present strike of the engineers had arisen from the support given by the noble Lord at the head of the Government to the Factory Bill. He believed that those two cir

There

cumstances were as much cause and effect as any two facts which bore that relation to each other. He warned the labouring classes not to compete with capitalists, under the delusive idea of realising a millennial happiness.

were let to hire throughout the country. The duty from this source amounted last year to 3,041l., and this year only to 2,7607., which, deducting the expense of collection, would probably not bring in more than 1,500l. to the Exchequer. Now, what was the reason that the tax fell off so from year to year? The tax was 61. a year; but as that tax was pay

MR. SLANEY, in reply, thanked the House for the kind notice which had been taken of his own humble exertions in the matter, and he wished to say that his Mo-able if the carriage were hired but for a tion was not confined to the working classes, but had for its object the removal of obstacles to investment which pressed upon all classes. He was glad the Government had conceded an inquiry; and, although he knew that men of the greatest abilities entertained different opinions on the subject, he had great hopes of a satisfactory result. He should therefore depend upon the promise of the Government to issue a Commission for that purpose, and would beg leave to withdraw the Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

DUTY ON CARRIAGES.

single day, and the average time of letting was not more than three months in the year, in point of fact the coachmaker paid at the rate of 251. yearly. The party hiring the carriage-the consumer, if he might use the expression-had of course to pay the tax ultimately, and he believed that this was the only thing manufactured in this country, except hair powder, which paid an annual tax. If there were no other grievance than this of which the coachmakers had to complain, it would be one for the favourable consideration of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. For thirteen SIR DE LACY EVANS, in moving, years successively this tax had fallen pursuant to notice, for leave to bring in a from 10,000l. till it reached its present Bill to modify the duty on Carriages, said amount. With the increase of population that he proposed that there should be in and the general increase of prosperity, future only three classes or rates of pay- this item of taxation exhibited a decrease ment, instead of the thirteen or fourteen year after year. That would serve to show now enforced. His proposition was for a that there must be something wrong in duty of 31. for four-wheeled carriages the tax itself. The present rates of duty drawn by two horses, 21. for four-wheeled on carriages varied from about 91. to 17. carriages drawn by one horse, and 11. for and some shillings; and there were a vatwo-wheeled carriages. That was the pro- riety of exemptions, which led to all sorts position which he had the honour to submit of frauds and evasions, or at any rate to to the House, though not as a volunteer, a deviation from the spirit of the Act. for the fact was that the whole of the There were four Acts of Parliament by coachmakers throughout the kingdom which the duties on carriages were imcomplained that their trade was deeply posed; and as the clauses contained a depressed, as the right hon. Chancellor of great variety of exemptions, there were, the Exchequer was well aware, from the consequently, all sorts of evasions and numerous petitions on the subject that had frauds practised. For instance, fourreached him. He (Sir De L. Evans) had, wheeled carriages, with wheels of less however, only been selected as the organ than 30 inches in diameter, drawn by of their complaints, because the greater mules or ponies of less than 12 hands in number of the coachmakers carried on height, were exempt from duty. business in the city which he had the good was intended for the relief of persons in fortune to represent. At this period of humble cireumstances; but the advertisethe evening, and in the present state of ments respecting" brilliant pony equipages the House, it would ill become him to under tax," which were so plentifully inspeak at any length on the subject, and serted in the newspapers, showed that therefore he would refer but to one point these were not the persons who profited by to show the unsatisfactory nature of this the exemption. Then there was the dogtax, and that was the duty on four-wheeled cart exemption, which flourished most excarriages let to hire. In the whole king- tensively, many noblemen, and even, as dom there were a thousand coachmakers, he was told, members of the episcopal and yet, owing to the nature of the tax bench, availing themselves of it. which was imposed, only 507 carriages only necessary to show a receipt from the last year, and 461 carriages this year, builder for 211. to the surveyor, and to

This

It was

ning to be unpopular with hon. Members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, though some time ago they directed their principal energies against indirect taxation

have the name of the owner painted on | In his opinion, one of the most unjust of the cart, and the thing was done. But it the direct taxes-taxes which were beginso happened that a dog-cart, with springs, could not be built for 21.; and thousands on thousands of cases occurred in which parties exerted, and successfully exerted, their ingenuity to evade the annual pay--one of the most unjust of the direct ment of 31. 5s. Sometimes a dog-cart, taxes, was the duty on stamps upon conwhich could not be made under 40%., was veyances. He had, therefore, made a prosold for 21., but then 197. was given for posal to effect some reduction in that para whip. Sometimes the gentleman who ticular; but the House thought proper to ordered the drag would not pay more than carry that reduction a good deal further the legal price himself, but his wife would than he had himself proposed, and he was take care that the tradesman did not suffer. told that the estimated loss of 500,000l. The House was about to deprive the elec- under this head was grossly exaggerated, tors of St. Albans of their franchise for and that the revenue would not suffer a septennial corruption; but the right hon. loss of half that amount. Now, the loss Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exche- on the first complete year of the reduced chequer was unwittingly causing corrup-duty was 497,000l. Calculations so very tion annually a hundredfold greater than accurate as this could not always be exwas committed in that unfortunate borough. pected; but the result served to show He trusted, therefore, that the right hon. that the officers of the tax department Gentleman would take this matter into his were more correct in their estimates than consideration, and allow him to introduce hon. Gentlemen in that House, He quite this Bill. He believed that the rates of agreed that it was desirable in many reduty which he proposed, would yield as spects to alter the mode in which the carmuch revenue as was now produced from riage tax was imposed; but that could not this source, while at the same time thirty- be done without resorting to one of two eight different classes of skilled artificers alternatives-either by submitting to a would obtain greatly increased employ-considerable loss of revenue, or by bring

ment.

MR. W. WILLIAMS seconded the Motion.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he was afraid that he could not at present agree to the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend. At the same time he must do him the justice to say that he had very fairly stated his case; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should not speak the truth if he did not admit that that there was a good deal in the operation of the tax which was not at all satisfactory. He also must say that of all the various persons who had done him the honour to wait on him to ask for a revision or reduction of taxation, no persons had made a fairer statement than those who had asked for the reduction of the carriage duty. He did not think, however, that the calculations which his hon. and gallant Friend had made as to the amount which would be received if the proposed rates were substituted, were quite justified by the information which he had obtained. He hardly remembered any proposed reduction of taxation, on making which he had not been told that he knew nothing about the matter, and that in the end the tax would produce a much larger amount than before.

ing under taxation a large class of carriages which at present did not pay any duty. The least sum which would be lost to the revenue, if the rates proposed by his hon. Friend were adopted, would be 200,0007., assuming that only the carriages now taxed would be liable. What amount would be received if other carriages not now paying duty were charged, would be matter for speculation. Among those who were now exempted were a large number of persons who had market carts-a class of carriages which had increased to an enormous extent, but which would be taxed if his hon. and gallant Friend's proposal were adopted by the House. At the same time he was satisfied that the opposition to the modification of the tax which his hon. and learned Friend proposed, would be greater than he anticipated; because he had seen several deputations on the subject, and he knew that the feeling in the south of England was by no means so favourable to the modification and extension of the tax as it was in the north. He could not, therefore, agree to a plan which he believed would entail a considerable loss to the revenue; and certainly, in the present state of the financial prospects of the year, with the unascertained duration of the

by the saving that would be effected in getting rid of appeals, and of the numerous staff of surveyors that were now employed to watch evasion of the law, he would see that the loss on the one side was balanced by the saving on the other.

war that was going on in South Africa, | quer talked of the loss of revenue that he he very much doubted whether he should would sustain; but if he balanced that loss be able to afford any money for the reduction of taxation. He thought it would, under such circumstances, be extremely premature to sacrifice revenue to the extent of 200,000%., as he should be obliged to do if he agreed to the proposal of his hon. and gallant Friend. The proposition. of his hon. and gallant Friend was not the only one for the reduction of taxation that stood upon the paper this evening. The hon. member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mr. Headlam) had a proposal to get rid of the duty on stamp receipts, which would be a loss to the revenue of 130,000l.; and the proposition of his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir De L. Evans) would be a sacrifice of revenue to the extent of 200,000l. at least, so that the two schemes would not cost less than between 300,000l. and 400,000.; he hoped, therefore, the House would concur with him in giving his negative to the Motion. He agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend, that if the state of the revenue would allow of it, some modification of this tax might form a fair subject of consideration; but it would not be safe to vote away taxes in this manner which might produce a deficiency at the end of the year, or at any rate might fritter away a surplus that might be better employed. He trusted, therefore, that the House would reject this proposition, and wait till the financial statement of the year was laid before them before they proceeded to dispose of the surplus

revenue.

MR. AGLIONBY regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt in assertion rather than in argument. The right hon. Gentleman had asserted that the revenue would lose 200,000l. if this measure were passed, but he had not stated to the House how he arrived at that conclusion. All that the right hon. Gentleman had to do was to look at the question in a pounds, shillings, and pence point of view; but the House of Commons had a right to consider the morality of it. At present, the law on this subject was so vague and mixed up with so many legal terms, that scarcely any person could understand what his rights were under it; and, to avoid the difficulties and frauds that occurred in consequence, he thought this Bill ought to be allowed to be brought in, unless it could be clearly proved that it would occasion a diminution of the revenue. Now, he (Mr. Aglionby) believed that by the proposition of the hon. and gallant Member (Sir De L. Evans), the revenue would be greatly increased. He believed that if a 11. tax was levied on all spring carts alike, the farmers would gladly pay it, and the revenue would be greatly benefited. [Sir DE L. EVANS: But I don't propose to tax the farmers.] He certainly understood that his hon. and gallant Friend exempted nobody-that there was to be one uniform tax on all. That, at all events, was his proposition; and he believed that farmers using spring carts to go to market would not object to pay the tax; the complaint was that those who were able to pay did not pay.

Sir DE LACY EVANS explained that he proposed in this measure to continue the exemption of all bona fide spring carts used by farmers and town traders.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL said, he was greatly disappointed with what had fallen from the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had again advised hon. Members not to commit themselves till he brought in the Budget. So he used to tell them with regard to the window duties; but the House persevered, and they smashed the window duties, and he had no doubt that ere long they would do the same with the carriage duties. Let them look at the question in a moral and economical point MR. W. WILLIAMS said, the right of view. In the library of the House hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted were numerous blue books, giving an ac- that the present state of the law was uncount of the appeals against this tax that satisfactory, and his only objection to the had been made from time to time; and it Motion was, that the revenue would suffer. would be seen that all sorts of evasions Now, the coachmakers had issued a pamwere continually had recourse to in order phlet to show that instead of suffering, the to avoid the tax. And then let the House revenue would gain by this modification. consider the expense of all the trials and Neither did his hon. and gallant Friend appeals that were continually taking place. (Sir De L. Evans), as he (Mr. W. WilThe right hon. Chancellor of the Exche-liams) understood him) wish for a reducThe Chancellor of the Exchequer

tion of this tax. His hon. and gallant Friend maintained, on the contrary, that by a just equalisation of the tax, the revenue would gain. What he (Mr. W. Williams) would propose, therefore, was to allow the Bill to be brought in, and then let a Committee be appointed to inquire into the subject, and give the coachmakers an opportunity to prove their statement, that by the adoption of this measure there would be no loss to the revenue. He was aware that the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had made some nice calcula-membered when it was quite usual for a tions upon the subject; but he must say that he had no faith in them, for they had been so often proved to be wrong that they appeared to be adopted very much at haphazard. But let them be tested by a Committee, and that was all he wanted.