due presumption in bringing it under their | then reappointed on his own nomination, consideration. In 1848, after every ex- the right hon. Gentleman had never brought pedient for postponement and evasion that forward any measure on the subject. The Parliamentary experience could suggest Committee of 1850 reported in these had been exhausted by the right hon. terms:Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exche

any savings bank should be liable to make which it was not only stated that the progood any deficiency that might thereafter prietors of the bank never overlooked the occur, unless they had declared by writing business of it, but that a special Act of under their hands, deposited with the Parliament had been passed to absolve Commissioners of the National Debt, that them from all responsibility? With rethey were willing to be so answerable. gard to the administration of the law in Could it be believed that, although that reference to savings banks, his opinion was, Act contemplated at the same time that until that administration was taken away such trustees should take on themselves from the irresponsible parties who now a limited liability, it was given in evidence exercised it, a long time must elapse bein 1848 that in only two banks in the fore any efficient change in the system kingdom-Ashby-de-la-Zouch and Tun- would be effected. There was a gentlebridge-had the trustees complied with man who rejoiced in the name of Tidd the Act of Parliament in that respect? He Pratt; a gentleman of very great power. would ask how those trustees had acted The Chancellor of the Exchequer had who had been absolved from all responsi- said that that gentleman was not a Governbility? There were, no doubt, many ex- ment officer, but was appointed by Act of ceptions, and in many cases the trustees Parliament to be the Barrister for carrying properly performed their duty; but he might out the provisions of that Act, and for cite the right hon. Chancellor of the Ex-settling disputes arising under the Act. chequer himself as a witness of the fact that it was exceedingly difficult to obtain regular attention on the part of the trustees to the business of the bank. On the 29th of April, 1850, the right hon. Gentleman stated that

And why was this gentleman not accounted a Government officer? Because, said the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was paid by fees, and not by salary. But Mr. Tidd Pratt, in his crossexamination before the Committee of 1848, "With regard to all persons who had taken admitted that he had an office in the Napart in the management of the affairs of those tional Debt Office; that he was consulted institutions, that however active and energetic by the Government previous to any legismight have been the zeal of individuals in form-lation on the subject taking place, and ing the establishment, it was exceedingly difficult that without any extra pay; and that he to insure their regular attention to its concerns for any length of time. Without being disposed was referred to on all occasions by the to attribute blame to individual trustees for the Chancellor of the Exchequer on matters management of savings banks-for, if he were connected with these savings banks. And to do that, he believed he should himself come in when he was asked whether he had ever for a fair share of it-he was afraid that, with some exceptions, the general practice was, that heard of any professional gentleman who no very regular attendance was given, and that gave advice and assistance free of any the affairs of the bank were left very much to extra pay who did not consider himself the management of the secretary, treasurer, clerk, regularly appointed by the Government, or by whatever other name the person left in he stated that he did not know. Was charge was called, and that salutary check was not exercised by the trustees or the manager that an answer with which the country which was perfectly indispensable to the proper would be satisfied? Was it not an unmanagement of the establishment. * * * Even worthy quibble to say that a person in in some establishments which had the reputation such a position was not a public officer, of being by no means ill managed, he had reason to believe that the trustees had been in the habit and responsible as such? How had Mr. of signing blank forms, and even checks, to be Tidd Pratt acted on several occasions? filled up by the acting manager, at his sole dis- Why, in a manner that had entailed not cretion; and, in point of fact, the check exer- only great loss on the unfortunate depocised according to the existing practice was much sitors in savings banks, but also on the more nominal than real." [3 Hansard, cx. 895.] country.

So that it would appear that the parties who had the management of the savings of the industrious depositors in savings banks were as uncontrolled in that management as if they were disposing of their own private money; so that a body of irresponsible men were intrusted with the deposits of the industrious classes of this country. How long would any Member leave his money in a private bank, of

In 1831 a serious deficiency occurred in Cuffe-street Savings Bank, Dublin; the trustees were anxious to wind up the affairs of the bank, but Mr. Tidd Pratt, who went over to Dublin to investigate those affairs, advised them to keep it open. They did so, and for seventeen years after Mr. Tidd Pratt's visit to Dublin was the Cuffe-street Savings Bank continued, notwithstanding that the annual return of the trustees to the National

"Mr. Coupe asked the opinion of the learned Gentleman as to a new bank, for public confidence It would be a calamithad gone in the old one. but established upon a safe principle, in which peoous matter if there was not another savings bank,

Mr. Pratt said there was a new Bill now before

Debt Office showed a progressive embar- breach of privilege, if he might use such rassment. The result was, that eventu- an expression, in reference to one of those ally, in 1848, the bank failed, in conse- banks. In 1848, shortly after the failure quence of a deficiency in its funds, to the of the Rochdale Savings Bank, that of St. amount of 64,6891. It would be in the Helens also failed, and Mr. Tidd Pratt was recollection of the House that in the Ses- called in on the 27th of April, 1850, to sion before last the Chancellor of the Ex-give his advice as to the course to be purchequer proposed a vote of public money sued by the trustees. to remunerate the depositors in that bank for the loss they had sustained, and which loss he (Mr. H. Herbert) contended was attributable to the advice given by a public officer to the trustees seventeen years pre-ple could deposit their money without fee. Perviously, to keep open the bank; and thus granting money for the relief of persons into whose case he refused any inquiry. He would mention another case. In the county of Kerry a savings bank failed in 1848. Mr. Tidd Pratt came there to arrange the affairs of the bank, and he made an award against the trustees appointed previously to the year 1844 (when the Act exonerating trustees from all responsibility was passed) for all deposits made previous to that date. Many of the depositors, acting upon this award, sued the trustees; but on the trial the award was set aside as grossly illegal by the Judges. He mentioned this fact on a former occasion, when the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it fit to say that the trial took place before an Irish Judge and an Irish jury; and he also stated that the awards were set aside on mere technical and legal grounds, in consequence of some informality of the notices. He (Mr. H. Herbert), with all courtesy and respect, would give that assertion the most unqualified contradiction. Lord Chief Justice Blackburne, in giving the decision of the Court, said—

"This determination I should have regretted if I had found that in fact the arbitrator had gone through the due course of inquiry, by the result awarding that this defendant was indebted to the plaintiff and the other depositors in the whole amount of their deposits. But, as far as I can judge, this conclusion was arrived at as the consequence of a very large deficiency of the back funds, without inquiry into the causes of the deficiency, without ascertaining to whose misconduct it was attributable, and without taking the accounts necessary to establish the right of the plaintiff to be paid twenty shillings in the pound by the defendant as his personal debtor."

of which alone he could have been warranted in

He (Mr. Herbert) believed that on numerous other occasions that gentleman had acted in such a way as to injure the persons depositing money in savings banks. It appeared to him that Mr. Tidd Pratt had been guilty of something very like a Mr. H. Herbert

haps Mr. Tidd Pratt could give some information.
Government, and it was only the business of the
House of Commons that had prevented its being
brought on.
It was all ready, and he had no hesi-
tation in saying that the provisions in it were such
as would entirely prevent any occurrence of frauds
of the kind perpetrated in St. Helens, or of any
kind whatsoever, provided the depositor paid his
money at the office, and during the office hours in
which the bank was open; and, therefore, he
hoped that until this Bill became law-and he ap-
prehended the time would not be long before it
was-the gentlemen of the neighbourhood would,
among themselves, form an institution to go on
until the new provisions came into force. And,
as he said before, he hoped the Bill would be such
that no fraud could occur under its provisions, or,
if there did, no depositor could lose a halfpenny.
Mr. Pratt: Not a doubt about it; the Bill is not
Mr. Coupe: Do you expect passing this soon?
only written, but it is printed, and all the provi-
sions are such as will prevent any fraud of this
kind."

He would ask the House whether, if upon
this advice a bank had been formed, money
had been deposited, and a failure had taken
place, the depositors would not have had a
strong moral claim upon the Government
for compensation? The Chancellor of the
Exchequer denied his responsibility for the
acts of Mr. Tidd Pratt; but was such an
individual to go about the country speaking
with the authority of a Government officer,
and inducing persons to deposit their mo-
ney in these savings banks, and then for
the Government to say that neither Mr.
Tidd Pratt nor the Government was respon-
sible? There had been failures in savings
banks in many places-in Rochdale, Brigh-
ton, Hull, Scarborough, Aylesbury, St.
Helens, Dublin, Tralee, and in some of
those cases the loss had been made good
by the trustees, but in others ruinous loss
to the depositors had occurred. He (Mr.
H. Herbert) had been an eye-witness to
the disastrous consequences resulting in
many instances from those losses. He had
for four years waited patiently for the Go-
vernment to take some step in the matter;
but the right hon. Gentleman the Chan-

Motion made, and Question proposed

"That this House has observed with regret the

continued neglect of Her Majesty's Government to fulfil their promise of introducing a Bill for the regulation of Savings Banks, by which those important institutions may be enabled to preserve their hold on the confidence of the Country, and a due encouragement be thus given to the industry and providence of the working classes.'

cellor of the Exchequer not having given | facts made to him by the trustees; and if his attention to it, he (Mr. H. Herbert) folt that advice had been followed, much of the it no longer consistent with his duty to re- mischief which afterwards occurred would main silent. If none of the statements he have been prevented. But that advice had made could be contradicted, he thought not having been followed, he confessed he he had made out a case to justify the House did not think Mr. Tidd Pratt could be to interfere by giving expression to an justly charged with the result of the proopinion on the subject, with a view to in- ceedings which afterwards occurred, and duce the right hon. Gentleman to discharge which he (the Chancellor of the Exchethose duties which, he was sorry to say, the quer) as sincerely regretted as the hon, right hon. Gentleman had not hitherto per- Member himself; in proof of which he formed. had felt it his duty to repair, in some measure, the distress which had ensued, by a vote of money. His hon. Friend had in a courteous manner contradicted a statement made by him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) a year ago. He hoped his hon. Friend would acquit him of any want of courtesy in repeating the statement which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) formerly made, namely, that the decision of the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland was upon a point of form, and that the extract which his hon. Friend had read from the judgment of Chief Justice Blackburne formed no part of the judgment of the case, but was merely an opinion given by the Judge in the course of his judgment. When he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) first made that statement, he was not in possession of the judgment of the Lord Chief Justice; but he would undertake to say, if the hon. Gentleman would submit the decision to any legal friend on his own side of the House, that friend would confirm the statement he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) now made, namely, that that decision turned simply on a point of form- the notices not having been affixed at the proper time and in the proper places. He, however, considered the case of Mr. Tidd Pratt to be altogether irrelevant to the question which was really before the House. The real question was as to the remedy to be applied with regard to savings banks. He did not see how he could have acted more speedily on the Report of the Committee of 1848, which was laid on the table of the House on the 24th of August, than by introducing a Bill founded on the Report on the 25th of August, the day following. The Bill in its original state was applicable to the United Kingdom; but in consequence of the opposition with which it was met in that House, its operation was limited to Ireland. It did not propose to place the entire control of the savings banks in the hands of the Government. All that the Government could do in such a

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, his hon. Friend had introduced into his speech a number of topics not very closely connected with the Motion which stood in his name on the notice paper. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would, however, attempt very shortly to dispose of one or two of those extraneous matters. First of all, with regard to his remarks on the personal character and responsibility of Mr. Tidd Pratt. Mr. Tidd Pratt was not a Government officer, because he was appointed under an Act of Parliament; nor was he under the control of the Government. He was named as the person whom depositors or trustees of savings banks might call in if they thought fit; but unless they called him in, he had no right whatever to interfere in their affairs; and it was not in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) power to send Mr. Tidd Pratt to make any inquiry into the state of savings banks, unless that gentleman was requested by the trustees or depositors so to do, or to arbitrate with respect to any dispute between them. Therefore, when his hon. Friend said Mr. Tidd Pratt was a Government officer, he must have known, from his experience in the Committee which sat on savings banks, that such was not the case. With regard to the Dublin case, he would go no further into that question at present than to state that when Mr. Tidd Pratt was sent over in 1831 to inquire into the state of the bank, he was utterly deceived by those whose duty it was to give him information on the subject. He gave certain advice on a certain representation of

matter was to provide that when the money | notice of his intention to bring in a Bill was paid into the hands of the Government at the beginning of the Session; but he Commissioners by the trustees, under the thought it desirable to have an opportunity provisions of the Act, the Government of consulting with many hon. Members who would be responsible for it; though there were familiar with the savings-bank queswas a notion, which prevailed to a con- tion and the state of local banks; and since siderable extent, that the Government the meeting of Parliament he had communiwas responsible for all the sums invested, cated to a considerable extent with them, which the hon. Gentleman very well knew and had made alterations in the Bill which they could not be. The great question of he proposed to introduce in the present responsibility was raised at the time when Session of Parliament. It was not very he had proposed to appoint a treasurer, easy to do this, when Gentlemen were all and what was asked seemed to be this scattered in the country. Considering how that the uncontrolled appointment of all necessary those inquiries had been, he did officers of savings banks should be left to not think much time had been lost in the trustees and managers, and that all bringing the matter to a practical concluthe responsibility of loss should be left to sion. His firm conviction was, that the the Government. Now, he was willing to delay had tended not only to improve the accept Government responsibility so far as Bill, but to diminish the chances of oppoGovernment were allowed to appoint offi-sition to it when introduced. He was fully cers; but he had been told, that if he per- prepared to admit that the present law was sisted in asking for the appointment of such in an unsatisfactory state, and that it was officers, the trustees and guardians would desirable it should be amended. At the resign, and that the country would lose the same time he thought that great harm benefit of savings banks. With such a would have been done if the subject had threat he did not venture to press such a been brought forward for discussion at a provision upon the House, as by so doing time when there would have been no possihe should not have promoted the interest bility of coming to any definite or satisfacof those classes of the population for whose tory conclusion. During the last three benefit these establishments were insti- years the greatest pains had been taken to tuted. He had introduced a Bill in 1850, frame such a measure as should effectually but was prevented from going on with remove the evils complained of; and he it by the great press of other public busi- believed, also, that the chance of opponess. He was perfectly ready with a Bill sition had been diminished by the comin 1851; but he had not thought fit to munications with different parties which bring it on when there was no chance had taken place. It should be borne in of carrying it, as the management of mind, that had the trustees of the vasavings banks formed a subject on which rious savings banks properly performed the House should not attempt to legislate, their duty, very little of the evils now unless they had a fair chance of passing the complained of would have been felt. No Bill; and hon. Gentlemen would remember legislation could compel such parties to how many measures Government were perform their duty. He believed that obliged to give up last Session in conse- the great body of the trustees and manquence of the pressure of business at the agers throughout the country were now close. Hon. Members must not suppose, more sensible of their duties, and, he however, he had been negligent of the ques- might add, more ready to perform them. tion in the interval; on the contrary, he had No legislation could enforce the voluntary devoted much time and pains to the subject. and unpaid attendance of these parties at A new Comptroller of the National Debt the meetings of the bank, and such attenOffice had been appointed, who had also dance could only be left to their good feeldevoted himself with great diligence to the ing towards their poorer neighbours. With examining the state of the savings banks, respect to the Motion of his hon. Friend, and a great number of additional facts and he did not know in what light to look upon a large amount of useful information had it, except as a censure upon his (the Chanbeen obtained by inquiries addressed to cellor of the Exchequer's) conduct in not local managers, trustees, and gentlemen bringing forward the Bill at an earlier connected with savings banks, which would date. He did not consider that he was have an important bearing upon any mea- deserving of such censure. He had examsure that might be introduced on the sub-ined the subject very closely during the ject. He might, certainly, have given last few years, and hoped to be able at a The Chancellorof the Exchequer