Main Question put, and agreed to.

"1. Resolved-That Dr. Reid be authorised to complete such temporary arrangements as are imperatively necessary at present for the mainof the House. tenance of a better atmosphere during the Sittings

"2. Resolved-That the warming, lighting, and ventilating of the House of Commons, and its Libraries, shall be placed under one responsible

Motion made, and Question proposed

"That Dr. Reid be called upon to submit forthwith, a full Report of all the measures he considers essential for the health and comfort of the House, together with an Estimate of the probable expense, and the time which he would require for the execution of the works; also, to state specially what plan he would propose for the lighting of the House."

Amendment proposed, after the word forthwith," to insert the words, “to the First Commissioner of Works."-[ Mr. Goulburn.]

tion; but this was expressly denied by Dr. Reid, who said that since 1842 Mr. Barry had refused to give him any estimate of the expense of carrying out his plans, so that when this sum of 57,000l. was mentioned it was not known how much of it was expended in Dr. Reid's necessary apparatus, or how much in Mr. Barry's mode of applying it. From the ex parte state-authority." ment made by the noble Lord, it was evident that the First Commissioner of Public Works was very liable to be influenced by the architect; and what security had they that the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) would not deprive them of the services of Dr. Reid (who had certainly ventilated the old House very well), and intrust it to Mr. Barry, whose ventilation of the House of Lords was abominable? He should, therefore, if.. he met with the support of the House, press his Resolutions to a division. He would be very happy to take upon himself, if Dr. Reid were allowed the temporary management of the ventilation, the responsibility that a pure and healthy atmosphere should be produced in that "3. Resolved-That Dr. Reid be called upon House; and he thought it a much more to submit forthwith to the First Commissioner of sensible plan if, instead of consulting some Works, a full Report of all the measures he conother person, who might perhaps suggest siders essential for the health and comfort of the expensive alterations in the apparatus al-Ilouse, together with an Estimate of the probable ready fixed by Dr. Reid, that gentleman was called upon to enter into a bond, or to lay upon the table of the House exact estimates of what he proposed. Meanwhile, however, the health of hon. Members was being ruined. Ten years seemed almost added to some of their lives in one night-[Laughter]—but at any rate many hon. Members were suffering most acutely from the present ventilation. He almost fancied he saw many of his respected friends growing old under his eyes. He, for one, would be no party to any arrangement with Mr. Barry.

LORD SEYMOUR said, his hon. Friend seemed to think that he had been uncharitable to Dr. Reid in what he had stated. Now, the figures which he had quoted had been taken from a printed paper laid before the House on the 14th of August, 1850 [Parliamentary Papers, No. 650], to which, as far as he knew, no answer had been given; and he did not imagine that in reading from this statement he had offered any opinion which could be deemed uncharitable. Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided:-Ayes 96; Noes 68: Majority 28.

Mr. B. Osborne

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

the execution of the works; also, to state speexpense, and the time which he would require for cially what plan he would propose for the lighting of the House."

POOR EMPLOYMENT (IRELAND).

COLONEL DUNNE moved for a return of all Works, the execution of which were undertaken by the Board of Works, on the authority of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, under the Act 9 & 10 Vict., c. 107, and of the certificates given, according to the 8th section of the said Act, to the Secretaries of Grand Juries in Ireland, of the execution of such Works. He had another Motion on the paper for a return of the amounts claimed from each electoral division on account of sums asserted to be due for the repayment of advances; but as the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised to give it, he would abstain from now moving for it.

MR. ROCHE seconded the Motion. What the Irish Members required was a clear bill of particulars with regard to the money advanced during the late famine. They had been charged with repudiation, and with acting an ungrateful part to the Parliament and people of Great Britain; but they only wanted to make it clear what Ireland had actually received. If it should

Returns ordered.

The House adjourned at a quarter after Five o'clock.

mmmmm

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Thursday, February 12, 1852.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL.-Reported.-Municipal
Corporations Acts Amendment.

be found that a great deal of the money | expended without finishing the works at all debited to the people of that country had for which they were advanced. never been received by them, and that they had never been benefited by it, it was necessary to know where it had gone to. If by neglect or design there should appear to have been some confusion of accounts or some juggle, nothing was more natural than that the Irish Members should wish to show that the deceit or juggle had been none of theirs. He did not know more than one or two Unions that went the length of repudiating these debts altogether. But nothing was more monstrous and unfortunate than the manner in which the money was laid out, and this was done in spite of the remonstrances of every man connected with Ireland. It was, in fact, robbing the people of England without benefiting the people of Ireland. What the Irish Members said, therefore, was, "Don't saddle us with the responsibility of that expenditure now."

MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH regretted that the hon. Gentleman had not called for returns of the works commenced under the Act passed by Sir Robert Peel's Administration, the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 1, which renewed the 1 & 2 Vict., c. 21.

SIR L. O'BRIEN said, the mistake arose from calling these "works. They were not works at all; it was a mere clumsy machinery for distributing money among a starving population, which money the people of Ireland were now called upon to repay. The House was no doubt under the impression that value had been given for this money. Some lives were no doubt preserved during the famine; but let the House consider on whom the responsibility of saving those lives fell. The Government wished to throw the responsibility of repaying this money upon the gentry and landed proprietary, who did their utmost during the famine, and whose estates at the time of the famine were taxed as high as they could possibly bear. What further responsibility remained belonged to Parliament and to the Government. The landed proprietors of Ireland might be responsible in terms, but he did not think they were morally responsible for one farthing of this debt.

MR. NAPIER knew of a case in Armagh which showed the necessity and importance of these returns being made. The Irish Members had a right to see the particulars of these works, that they might know what works were executed by the Board of Works, and what sums were VOL. CXIX. [THIRD SERIES.]

REFORM OF THE COURTS OF LAW
AND EQUITY.

LORD LYNDHURST said, with reference to the Common Law Procedure Bill, he had read it over with great attention; and it appeared to involve questions so nice in their character, that the discussion of it in the House would be impossible, consistently with a due regard to the Bill itself; and he, therefore, suggested that it should be referred to a Select Committee, to be there discussed in the first instance. He might mention that, having compared it with the Report of the Commissioners on which it professed to be founded, there seemed to be a great omission in the Bill. The Commissioners had proposed a great variety of alterations in the practice in the Common Law Courts; and had followed up their recommendation with a schedule of fees to be paid in the progress of a suit. This revision of the fees could not but be regarded as an essential part of any measure; it was, however, omitted from the present Bill; and if the Bill were to pass without it, the result would be to produce in the administration of the law the greatest possible confusion; because the fixed system of fees-partly founded on statutes, and partly on the authority of the Courts

could not be applied to the course of proceedings suggested by it. It, perhaps, might be said that their Lordships could not, consistently with the privileges of the other House, send down a Bill enacting the payment of fees. But that was not necessary, according to the usual course of proceeding adopted by their Lordships; for when fees or any money clauses formed part of any measure originating with their Lordships, those clauses were-although introduced in the first instance, and agreed to in that House-always afterwards struck out on the third reading, but printed with the Bill; so that the other House could, of course, see what had been the intention

P

of their Lordships upon the subject, and | being allowed in almost all actions to put could exercise their own judgment as to the the plaintiff to the proof of everything in propriety of inserting the clauses. He would his case, material or not to the merits of remind their Lordships, that if the other the question really at issue. Great pains House inserted money clauses, their Lord- were taken to put an end to that system, ships had no opportunity of altering them. and, unquestionably, considerable time was The usual course would in this instance be saved, and certainly great benefit attained, for the benefit of the Bill, and he sug- by the introduction of the New Rules (of gested that upon the Committee his noble 1835), which required that the defendant and learned Friend could ascertain the fees' should state in particular what he meant suggested by the Commissioners, and move to object or to rely on as his defence. the reference of the Bill to a Select Com- If his noble and learned Friend was of mittee. opinion that the present Bill could be carried further, he (the Lord Chancellor) should be happy to receive his suggestions. As to the question of fees-it being the object of the measure to simplify the proceedings of Westminster Hall, and, as far as possible, to economise and expedite them, the Bill travelled through the whole course of a suit; and it was impossible to frame a list of fees before it was known what might be the opinion of their Lordships (especially of his noble and learned Friend), and until the Judges had been consulted as to what fees ought to be exacted, and the stages of the suit at which they should be paid. After the measure had proceeded a certain degree, he would be enabled to form a table of fees; which could not, indeed, go down to the House of Commons included in the Bill, but could, as his noble Friend had stated, be printed with the Bill, so that the other House would quite see the views and intentions of their Lordships on the subject.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it did not appear to him to be necessary to refer the Bill to a Select Committee; but he was not at all surprised that his noble and learned Friend should have suggested such a course; on the contrary, he had anticipated it, and he had no objection to that course being adopted. And as his noble and learned Friend had on a former occasion intimated an opinion that the Bill did not go far enough, if his noble and learned Friend would suggest any clauses carrying the reform further, he should be ready to give them his best consideration. But at present his impression was, that his noble and learned Friend would find it extremely difficult to do so. Since the subject was last discussed-when his noble and learned Friend had expressed an opinion that it might be possible to adopt the proceedings of the County Courts into the Superior Courts-he had made himself acquainted with what that course of proceeding was, and had found that there was a statement by the plaintiff in a general sort LORD LYNDHURST said his noble and of way as to what was his demand, but learned Friend appeared to have forgotten there was no such statement on the part of that the table of fees had already been the defendant as to what was his defence; proposed by the Commissioners, and formed and so the causes actually went down to part of the Report. With respect to the trial without anybody knowing what the remarks he had made regarding the comquestion at issue was. He did not know parison between the Courts of Common whether his noble and learned Friend Law at Westminster and the County really had been aware that such was the Courts, his remarks were founded upon an course of proceeding; nor did he know assumption of fact. The County Courts whether his noble and learned Friend had jurisdiction in certain cases to the exthought that the heavy business of this tent of 501.; and he was told (and had country could be carried on on such a sys- heard it from his noble and learned Friend tem-causes going down to trial without himself) that the jurisdiction had been the plaintiff knowing what the defence exercised to the entire satisfaction of the was. It struck him (the Lord Chancellor) suitors. Now, his (Lord Lyndhurst's) that it was probable their Lordships might remark upon that was, if in that class not adopt that view. Their Lordships of cases in which jurisdiction was given would recollect that (as had been stated by the former Commission on the reform of Common Law Procedure) formerly the greatest inconvenience, and injury, and expense were incurred, the "general issue" Lord Lyndhurst

to the County Courts, by the simple machinery to which he had adverted, no inconvenience had resulted, he could see no reason why the same machinery should not be applied in the Superior Courts of

Justice in the same class of cases to a been given under some misapprehension, larger amount. The whole argument, not by the Solicitor General, but by Lord however, rested on the assumption that John Russell upon mistake and misinforthere had resulted no inconvenience from mation. There was not, there could not the County Courts' machinery, and that be, any possibility of the Bill being in the jurisdiction had been exercised in a such a state as to be presented to the manner perfectly satisfactory to the suitors House by the time mentioned. It was a and to the public. There was a question matter of great difficulty, requiring great to which he desired to advert, on a differ- consideration. It was in the hands of a ent subject, but still connected with the gentleman well fitted to prepare it; and administration of the law. He found by he (the Lord Chancellor) would do his the Votes of the other House that the Bill utmost to expedite the preparation of it, for the Reform of the Court of Chancery, and to adopt so much of it as could be which had been the subject of so much carried out with benefit (though he was conversation, was to be laid on the table not prepared to say that the whole could on Monday next. He wished to ask his be); but he was persuaded that the gennoble and learned Friend whether he could tleman could scarcely have yet formed, undertake to state that the Bill was in even in his own mind, the shape of the such a state of preparation as to render it Bill, and that it could not possibly be in a possible that it could be laid upon the table state to be produced to Parliament by the by that time? He would mention that a time which had been stated. With regard report was in circulation in Westminster to the remark of his noble and learned Hall, and in the profession generally, that Friend as to the present Bill, for reform of his noble and learned Friend had great common law procedure not going far objections to that part of the Bill which enough, he had understood the remark related to the Master's Office. Perhaps had been general, and had not underthis rumour was founded upon a misap- stood it with the qualification alluded prehension of what had fallen from his to by his noble and learned Friend as to noble and learned Friend on a former the County Court system having worked occasion, and a consequent mis-statement in the newspapers; he therefore gave his noble and learned Friend an opportunity of setting himself right. As his noble and learned Friend had before this had ample time for considering the Report of the Commissioners, he would, doubtless, be able to express a distinct opinion upon the subject.

The LORD CHANCELLOR did not know what opportunity his noble and learned Friend might have had of considering the Report-he, no doubt, had leisure time which he could devote to the subject. He (the Lord Chancellor) had for his own part given to it the utmost time he could withdraw from the judicial and ministerial duties of his office; but he could not pretend that he had been able to make up his mind on every part of it. With regard to the rumour referred to, he begged to state that he had not expressed disapprobation of any part of the Report. He had expressed doubts whether certain parts of it could be carried out as desired by the Commissioners, not at all being indisposed to adopt their recommendations if they were practicable; as to which he repeated that he had doubts. The notice to which his noble and learned Friend had referred as to the Chancery Bill-had

satisfactorily and without inconvenience. But, he repeated, he had made inquiries, and had found that the County Court system had been found to involve very serious inconvenience-inconvenience which was likely to increase in the Courts of Westminster Hall if the same system were adopted. The inconvenience he alluded to was this: When the plaintiff had stated his case, the defendant, it not unfrequently happened,. brought forward a defence quite unexpected; whereupon an application was usually made on the part of the plaintiff to adjourn the case, and such adjournments were not uncommon. His noble and learned Friend could form his own opinion how far it would be convenient in Westminster Hall that causes should be part heard and then adjourned. And it would be observed, that the class of cases which came to Westminster Hall would be far more complicated and difficult than those which went into the County Courts; and, therefore, it appeared probable that the number of adjournments in proportion to the number of cases would be greater in the Superior Courts. The inconvenience and injustice would be extreme if the plaintiff's case having been heard, the cause was then to be adjourned. Even in the class of cases common to the

Superior Courts and the County Courts, the inconvenience of the County Courts' system was great; and, if carried further, although the difficulty might not be greater in point of principle, it would be productive of far more injury; and he could hardly imagine that his noble and learned Friend really thought that such a system should be carried further.

ships to allow the Bill to pass, with all the improvements possible, without waiting for the settlement of the fees.

LORD LYNDHURST remarked, with reference to the County Courts and Common Law Courts procedure if in the Select Committee it appeared-comparing the two systems together as to the class of cases in which they had a common jurisLORD CAMPBELL said, he would not diction—if it were found that the course take part in the discussion on the Chancery of procedure proposed in this Bill was Bill at least at present-leaving it to his preferable, and that it obviated the inconnoble and learned Friend on the woolsack, veniences alleged by his noble and learned and his noble and learned Friends who Friend to exist in the County Courts-it had occupied it. But having the honour would be material to consider whether the to hold the office of Lord Chief Justice of inconveniences alluded to ought not to be England he felt it incumbent on him to obviated in the County Courts by the adopexpress his earnest desire that the Bill for tion of proceedings similar to those prothe amendment of procedure in the Courts posed in the Common Law Courts Proof Common Law might pass with as little cedure Bill. With regard to the reply delay as possible. There were crying given by his noble and learned Friend as abuses which would be remedied by that to the Court of Chancery, he had never Bill, which did more than had been done supposed it possible that his noble and to alter and amend our legal procedure learned Friend had made himself master since the reign of Edward I. He was of all the details of the Report, so as to astonished when he heard his noble and make up his mind completely; but the learned Friend opposite (Lord Lyndhurst) particular point to which he had directsay he was not satisfied with the immense ed his noble and learned Friend's attenlength to which the measure would go, tion was one of such paramount imporand that he would wish all regular or writ- tance that he supposed his noble and ten proceedings to be abolished, and that learned Friend must surely have made up the Courts of Westminster should return his mind upon it by this time; he meant as to the system of pleading ore tenus. He to the Master's Office. His noble and believed it was of the greatest importance, learned Friend, however, had given no anwhile we had trial by jury, to ascertain swer upon that point. before the jury were impanelled what were The LORD CHANCELLOR said, such the points they had to determine, and this questions as those put by his noble and could not be done without written state- learned Friend scarcely admitted of an ments of the case on the part of the plain- answer without entering into explanations tiff-of written answers on the part of the longer than it would be expedient to give defendant, and the written reply of the on such occasions. He must deprecate plaintiff thereto. That was provided for these endeavours to anticipate the discusby the Bill now upon their Lordships' sion of the measure in a manner most intable; which he hoped would soon be sent convenient. However, he never wished to down to the other House, believing, as he hang back in answering distinctly any quesdid, that it would be productive of great tion put to him in that House; although good. He was anxious that it should not he was aware that in answering such quesbe delayed until the schedule of fees was tions much time was consumed, not at all finally arranged. The reform would not, to the advantage of the public. He had certainly, be completed until there were a no objection to that part of the Bill which new arrangement of fees, the present sys- related to the Master's Office, if when he tem being discreditable; but the subject came to see the arrangement of the duties was one of great difficulty, and was not the Judges were to perform at chambers, necessarily part of this Bill. Indeed, he the new arrangement appeared advantagehad understood that it had been the plan ous. If, however, Judges at 6,000l. a year of the Government to pass the Bill brought were to be appointed to perform duties into that House, and to introduce into the which Masters in Chancery now performed other House a Bill for the regulation of the for much less-if the Judges were to disfees, which could only be fitly considered in charge at chambers the duties which Masthe other House. He implored their Lord-ters in Chancery now performed, with sub

The Lord Chancellor