185 The Queen's Speech {FEB. 5, 1852} such consumption should be introduced, and he asked to do something towards it by this Bill, the principles of which might be much better discussed on the second reading. MR. HUME could only say that if Her Majesty's Government allowed a Bill of such importance as this to pass without a word, the House would be better without them. The LORD ADVOCATE said, that although there was a great diversity of opinion as to the desirableness of any legislation on the subject, he could not see that there was any objection to be made to the hon. Gentleman opposite having leave to introduce his Bill. The House in Committee. Resolved-"That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Public Houses in Scotland." Resolution reported:-Bill ordered to be brought in. THE QUEEN'S SPEECH-A SUPPLY. The Order of the Day having been read for taking into consideration the Queen's Speech, MR. SPEAKER read the portion of the Speech relating to the Estimates of the present year. MR. CORNEWALL LEWIS moved, "that a Supply be granted to Her Majesty." (Sir F. Baring) who had moved the Navy Estimates in the two previous Sessions, had then stated what had been done in pursuance of the recommendations of the Committee. The Secretary at War, in moving the Army Estimates last Session, had also shown that the expenditure in that department had been very considerably reduced. As far as he recollected, it appeared from the statements last year, that a considerably increased force would be maintained at an expenditure below that of the previous year. The proper time, however, for any details upon this subject, would be when the Army and Navy Estimates were moved, and he had no doubt they would then be furnished in the fullest manner by his right hon. Friends by whom that duty would be performed. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that he wished to put a question to the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works. It had been stated on the previous evening by the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne), that one of the chandeliers suspended from the roof of the House had fallen. He should, therefore, be glad to know if the noble Lord was in a position to assure the House that there was no danger of any similar occurrence taking place? He also wished to know whether any means could be taken to make the lamps burn? LORD SEYMOUR said, that having heard the report that a chandelier had fallen upon the floor of the House, he sent MR. HUME begged to ask whether, in for Mr. Barry, who, in reply to a question presenting the Estimates for the Army and upon the subject, presented him with a Navy to the House, it was the intention of paper (signed by the contractor, the clerk the Government to carry out any of the of the works, the foreman, and every one On the 3rd of January a recommendations lately made of changes engaged in the building) denying that such which had been proved to be absolutely ne- was the fact. cessary by the evidence taken before the workman let fall a piece of iron, which Committee which sat three years ago. The went through the floor of the House, and evidence taken before that Committee of this might have given rise to the report. which he was a Member, showed clearly The defective burning of the lamps arose, and distinctly that improvements of great he understood, partly from there having importance, not only with regard to the been a leakage of the gas, and partly from inefficiency but the economy of both ser- its not having been possible for the gasvices could be effected. Although that fitters to complete their work within the Committee separated last Session under time expected. peculiar circumstances, and did not make so full report as was intended, in consequence of the loss of their chairman, they did offer some recommendations, and he wished to know if it would appear from the Estimates whether those recommendations were to be carried out. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that his right hon. Friend MR. BERNAL OSBORNE said, that he did not make the statement with reference to the fall of the chandelier on his own responsibility; he had it from a Member of the Government, the noble Lord the Member for Lichfield (Lord Anson), who told it to him upon the authority of the seconder of the Address (Mr. Carter). {LORDS} 187 The Kafir War-Sale of HOUSE OF LORDS, THE KAFIR WAR-SALE OF AMMUNI TION TO THE KAFIRS. Ammunition to the Kafirs. 188 of gunpowder had been sent from this country to the Cape of Good Hope; but he was also aware that there was no law to prohibit it; he believed, also, that the merchants of this country sent it out without knowing the bad purposes to which it was applied; for in peaceable times gunpowder was one of the main articles of export to the Cape, where a great quantity of it was used, it being a necessary article in the colony. But in the month of November last, the Chairman of the Board of Customs communicated to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to himself the fact that these shipments of gunpowder and arms to the Cape were going on. The EARL of MALMESBURY said, that seeing his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies in his place, he should like to ask him a question, before answering which, he hoped he would not require the formality of a notice. He had seen in The moment that he received the papers which the noble Earl had laid this intimation, he (Earl Grey) wrote a upon the table of their Lordships' House, despatch at once to the Governor at the a statement which he was sure would be Cape (which despatch was included in the extremely revolting to the public, as show- papers on their Lordships' table), and in ing a degree of cupidity and a forgetful- it he called his Excellency's attention to ness of all feelings of patriotism which was the circumstance, that he might direct imhighly discreditable to this country. The mediate measures to be taken to prevent statement was, that a large quantity of the arms and ammunition from being used gunpowder had been recently exported so as to fall into the hands of our enemies. from this country to the Cape Colony, and At the same time, on consulting with the there sold to our enemies the Kafirs. The Board of Customs and other persons that noble Earl, in these papers, spoke justly in he thought capable of giving him the best the strongest language of this practice. advice, he had come to the conclusion that Certainly the noble Earl appeared to have it would be inexpedient to attempt to stop done what he could on the occasion, by the exportation of arms and gunpowder giving directions to the Governor to follow from this country; and for this reason, that up with severity any person detected in by doing so, if the gunpowder was intended selling this ammunition when it reached for unlawful purposes, it would only put the Cape; but he wished to ask the noble the exporters on their guard, and they Earl whether he could not take measures could send it first to France or Holland, in this country for stopping the further whence it could be taken and landed on export of that material; because, if he was the southern coast of Africa without going not mistaken, large quantities of gunpow- to Cape Town or Graham's Town: and, der could not be exported without some secondly, because he thought that by conpermission from the authorities in England, tinuing to allow the transmission of arms and must be shipped, he believed, almost and ammunition to the Cape, without any under the eyes of the Ordnance. He wish-interference with it at home, he should be ed to ask, therefore, whether the noble Earl had any intention of bringing persons guilty of such an offence in this country to trial or exposure; whether there were any means of preventing the continuance of such a practice; and whether he was aware that arms as well as ammunition were carried from this country to the Cape to be sold to our enemies? EARL GREY said, in reference to the important subject involved in the noble Earl's question, he thought the best mode in which he could answer it was by simply stating to the House precisely what had occurred. He was quite aware, before the war broke out, that very large quantities able to cut up the traffic more certainly and effectually; and he was happy to say that, in a report that he had received within the last few days from the collector of customs at the Cape, that gentlemen expressed a strong opinion that the best course to adopt was to endeavour to arrest the traffic when it approached the colony, rather than attempt to check it from this country. Their Lordships would be aware from the despatches on the table, that an ordinance had been passed (he was bound to say, when it was too late) by the Legislative Council at the Cape, for intercepting the trade there; and he had received, only yesterday, from the Admiralty, a report from The EARL of HARDWICKE was understood to make an inquiry about the use of arms by the population at the Cape; to which EARL GREY replied, that he thought in that country it was the fashion for almost everybody to carry arms. RECALL OF MAJOR GENERAL SIR H. SMITH FROM THE CAPE. 189 Recall of Major General {FEB. 6, 1852} Sir H. Smith from the Cape. 190 the Commodore on the African station, | traffic on the north-western coast of stating that he had despatched one of the Africa. vessels under his command to prevent gunpowder from being landed on the West Coast of Africa. He was informed by a very able officer that the places where the landing of it was practicable were so very few that there would be no difficulty in interrupting the traffic; but at the same time it was utterly impossible to prevent the loyal inhabitants and farmers in the colony from purchasing powder, because they required to have it for their own defence, not only against the Kafirs, but also against the wild beasts abounding in that part of Africa, and which were a source of very serious danger. After a full consideration of the question, the Legislative Council at the Cape had decided on a measure which had now become law, as on the whole the best course that could be adopted; and he was led to hope, by the information that he had received, that being armed with these powers the Government would be able to suppress this traffic. But he was concerned to add that, in his opinion, this precaution had been taken much too late, and it was to him quite incomprehensible, knowing the strong laws in existence at the Cape against the sale of gunpowder to the Kaffirs, that this trade had been allowed to go on so long. The Commodore reported that the trade was now stopped; but his expression was that during the last few months several hundred tons of powder had been landed along the western coast. The EARL of MALMESBURY said, it appeared to him that if the sale of gunpowder at the Cape was placed under this restriction, that licences should be procured from the Government by persons to whom it was necessary for self-defence, either against the Kafirs or wild beasts, we should have some guarantee against the enemy obtaining it. The noble Earl had forgotten that his question applied to arms as well as to gunpowder. EARL GREY said, there was no fault to find with the ordinance of the Legislative Council, except that it ought to have been passed last February instead of last November. The instructions he had given extended to the prevention of the trade in arms as well as gunpowder intended for the enemy. He had seen in the newspapers a report of certain shipments of arms from this country; but he had no reason to believe that they were intended for the Cape; he believed they were for The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY said, that as the subject of the Kaffir war had been that evening brought under consideration, he could not refrain from putting-though without notice-two or three questions to the noble Earl opposite of a professional character. His first question had reference to the despatch of Earl Grey, dated the 14th of January last, conveying to Major General Sir Harry Smith the opinion which he had formed on his military operations. Now, he had heard with the greatest satisfaction the speech delivered last night by his noble and gallant Friend near him (the Duke of Wellington)-the highest authority on military matters in the world-on the subject of Sir H. Smith. He felt that his noble and gallant Friend had spoken most fitly for his own dignity, and most fitly for the high character of Sir H. Smith. His noble and gallant Friend's speech would be a panacea for the feelings of mortification which Sir H. Smith must endure on hearing that he was made a victim by the noble Earl opposite. He (the Marquess of Londonderry) did not dispute the right of the Government to dismiss any officer; but it was of the highest importance to the well-being of the Army that that right should be exercised with the greatest discretion. It should not be in the power of Government to dismiss an officer of high reputation at its pleasure, and to place in his stead an officer whose military exploits were not known. It seemed strange that any Government should venture to place in command an officer who knew nothing of his duties, and should dismiss an officer who had had great experience in the art of war. The selection made of a new Governor for the Cape of Good Hope must go to the country as a selection of the noble Earl; for the determination to dismiss Sir H. Smith was not formed on any decision of his noble and gallant Friend near him, but on the ipse dixit of the noble Earl alone. Sir H. Smith was not and conversation in this House), that we considered it necessary, although a most painful duty, to relieve Sir Harry Smith from his duties as Governor of the Cape of Good Hope. Having determined on that course, most undoubtedly I did not determine on the selection of the officer whose name I submitted to the Queen as his suc an officer of ordinary character; for, without him, where would have been the victory of Aliwal? His high character was the property of his country, and therefore he (the Marquess of Londonderry) wished to know what the precedents were on which the noble Earl defended his recall of Sir H. Smith, and the appointment of Major-General Cathcart as his successor?cessor, without consulting the highest miIf the war should become worse in Kafraria, on the noble Earl and the Government would rest the responsibility for the disaster. He doubted the policy as well as the justice of dispensing thus unceremoniously with the services of such an officer as Sir H. Smith, after the high testimonial to his merits which had been recently given by his noble and gallant Friend the Commander-in-Chief. He concluded by asking the noble Earl whether the dismissal of Sir Harry Smith was approved by the Commander-in-Chief, or was entirely the act of the Colonial Office; and whether the appointment of Major-General Cathcart as successor to General Sir H. Smith, late Governor of the Cape of Good Hope, was founded on the selection of the Horse Guards, or whether it was the appointment of the noble Earl himself? EARL GREY: My Lords, I am not sure if the questions just put by the noble Marquess opposite are of a very usual description. I am quite certain that many of the remarks that he has made are remarks in which it would be very unfitting in me, on this occasion at all events, to follow him. If the noble Marquess wishes to question the measure which has been adopted by the Government, let him do so in the regular way, and take the sense of your Lordships' House on the subject, and I shall be prepared to defend the course which we have pursued. But mere irregular remarks at this time on so important a subject shall not lead me into following the noble Marquess. I will only say thus much in answer to his question, first, regarding the recall of Sir Henry Smith. It appeared to me, for the reasons stated in those despatches to which the noble Marquess adverted, that that officer ought to be relieved from his present duties. I consulted my Colleagues on the subject; and, with their unanimous consent, I determined to submit the advice to Her Majesty, on considerations not exclusively military (as to those who read the papers on the table will be evident, and as is further evident by the very recent discussion The Marquess of Londonderry litary authority to which it was in my power to appeal. I did consult the noble Duke at the table (the Duke of Wellington), and I think the noble Duke will bear me out in saying that on naming MajorGeneral Cathcart as the person who might properly be appointed to this responsible situation, the answer of the Commanderin-Chief was, that if Sir Harry Smith was to be relieved, he did not think that any officer could be selected more fit for that military employment than Major-General Cathcart. This answer I hope will satisfy the noble Marquess; and certainly I decline to go any further, and discuss now at greater length the reasons for the measure we have taken. I will only add, that having had intercourse with Sir Harry Smith before he went to the Cape, and having had the highest respect for his character, and believing him entitled to the high reputation which he bears, it has never been my lot while I have had to conduct public affairs, to have so painful a duty cast upon me as having to advise Her Majesty to recall him. But believing in my conscience that that measure was necessary, I could not shrink from performing my duty, however painful it might be. APPELLATE JURISDICTION. LORD BROUGHAM said, that in moving for returns of the cases of appeal to their Lordships' House under its appellate jurisdiction, he wished to take the opportunity of making a few observations regarding the hearing of appeals from the courts in Scotland. He had been represented last Session as having expressed his opinion that their Lordships should have the assistance of one or more Scotch Judges, or of an assessor from these Courts, in hearing appeals from Scotland. Now, the opinion which he had expressed was quite the reverse of that, for he considered that the suggestion, which was very likely to be made in consequence of the calling in Equity Judges to assist the House on English cases, would be attended with difficulties that were almost insuperable as The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that undoubtedly there was considerable inconvenience and anomaly connected with the hearing of Scotch cases in their Lordships' House: but he was not aware that any different course from that now pursued had been proposed by Scotch practitioners. However, he was now in communication with members of the legal profession in Scotland upon the subject, and he should give his best consideration to any changes which they might suggest in the present arrangements. He regarded these forms in Scotland. The portance, too, that cases should be heard Faculty of Advocates in Edinburgh had sent de die in diem, without any interval or up a part of their body on a former occa- adjournment. sion to confer with himself and some of his noble and learned friends upon the subject. He had entered into correspondence with them, having left town before their arrival; and the result of their communications had been, so far as his own opinion was concerned, that the difficulties of the question were not perhaps wholly insurmountable, and that some means might by possibility be devised to remove the anomaly of the present arrangements. He could go no further than this. At all events, every one must feel that those difficulties were great enough to make the House pause before it effected any important change in the appellate jurisdiction, and that they were bound to apply every relief and remedy that could be suggested which might appear likely to lessen the mischief complained of. Without going into the entire question, he was about to suggest to their Lordships and to his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) what he thought would be a very important improvement in their mode of conducting the appellate business, which he would venture to say-and he spoke on the strength of communications he had had with certain of the heads of the Courts in Scotland-would have a most valuable effect in removing the difficulties of the case. It was simply that they should take the Scotch appeals together at some period of the Session, and he should say, at that period of the Session which was most convenient to the Scotch practitioners. There were two months of recess in the Scotch courts, commencing in March and ending in May. Why, then, should not their Lordships take these two months for the Scotch appeals? The suitors in England and in Ireland would have no right to complain of such an arrangement, because they would gain advantage by having the first part of the Session devoted entirely to their business; and if there were any special case requiring the immediate interference of the House, the Scotch appeals might be discontinued for a day or two. He thought it was of great importance that they should take the Scotch appeals continuously, which would be the course most convenient for Scotch practitioners and suitors, and would also be the best for their Lordships themselves, because it would procure for them the assistance and aid of Scotch lawyers. It was of essential imVOL, CXIX. [THIRD SERIES.] LORD BROUGHAM begged to say a CHANCERY AMENDMENT BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he heard with considerable surprise of the notice which had been given of the introduction of a Bill for the Reform of the Court of Chancery into the other House of Parlia H |