Imágenes de páginas
PDF
EPUB

nation's prosperity, the income tax, did not exceed last year what it amounted to the first year it was imposed as a national burden? He was also astonished to hear the right hon. Baronet say that a duty of 5s. on corn would not be productive of such and such an amount. Why, it was the boast of free trade that it had during the last five years been the means of bringing into consumption upwards of 50,000,000 quarters of corn, and it was well known from the public returns that the diminution of agricultural produce in Ireland had amounted to the extent of

nearly 10,000,000 quarters a year. He utterly denied that the import of 50,000,000 quarters a year had added to the wealth, comfort, or happiness of the people. It had been merely a substitution, or rather annihilation of our own produce, inflicting ruin upon the sister kingdom, which would shortly overtake ourselves. Such a system was a system of hollowness and hypocrisy to which he would not be a party; on the contrary, he would lend his aid to modify it in the first place, and felt certain that it must ultimately be reversed. The son and successor of the late Henry Grattan (Mr. Grattan), had, in an address on the 8th February last, said

"Tinnehinch, Feb. 28, 1852. "Gentlemen-On my return from your assizes, it occurred to me that it might be useful to address a few lines to you, and I take this liberty, having been so long one of your representatives.

"I need not tell you how important is the present crisis, and how it becomes us all who have an interest in land, in our farmers, in our country, now to make a struggle, and to insist from a Protectionist Ministry for duties on foreign productions and foreign competition. We should not ask this were we fighting a fair fight, but it is not so. Protection, as it is called, has not been removed, or done away; it has been transferred from us who fight the battles and pay the taxes for the support of our free institutions, to those who do neither; who have little taxes and no

freedom; or, I should rather say, to those who fight the battle against us and our free institutions, and against whom we are at this moment engaged in arming rifle corps and militia. have enriched our enemy, we have impoverished our country, and we are now being taxed for our

We

own defence. Ireland has been depopulated, her houses levelled, her farmers bankrupt, her estates in Incumbered Courts, her exports reduced to

little as well as her circulation. The Celt will soon be known only by name; sheep and cattle now take the place of the people, and the stranger with capital and large farms. To such a system has the law of free trade driven the landed proprietor of Ireland, he cannot keep the people and get rent. I do believe that in the last few years,

such desolation as has occurred in Ireland is un

paralleled in history, and yet the rents of land are lower than in any country between this and

Naples; and you may depend upon it, that, when
the cultivation of wheat shall have been aban-
doned in Ireland, and it is already greatly dimin-
ished, and all the capital and labour spent in that
cultivation lost and absorbed, you will then have
the big loaf as small as ever.
With such pros-
pects, it behoves all Irishmen to be up and doing,

'Lives there a man with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said-

This is my own, my native land?' "Gentlemen, in this state, and with such pros

pects, should you not find Members to act for you, I, for one, if called on, am ready again to come forward, and to aid in averting, so far as in me lies, the provincial degradation into which my country is fast sinking.-I have the honour to be, yours, 'J. GRATTAN."

He (Mr. Booker) threw these matters out for the consideration of hon. Gentlemen from Ireland, who he hoped would act on them. Though representing an agricultural constituency, he was also engaged in commercial affairs, and between both pursuits perhaps some 4,000 or 5,000 were dependent on him; therefore, he felt himself in a position to give as correct an opinion as to the effects of free trade as any hon. Gentleman present. He asked for the Government what he should give them himself-fair play. He thought it was their duty, as soon as the public business would allow, to appeal to the sense of the country on this subject. They had stated that by the result of their appeal their future policy would be guided, and he did not think it becoming in an ex-Attorney General to seek to pin them down to give an answer, aye or no, to the questions that that learned Gentleman had propounded to them.

Question put, and agreed to,

House in Committee of Supply. (1) 39,000 Seamen, and Naval Reserve of 5,000 Men.

MR. HUME objected to going on with any other vote after midnight.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER hoped the hon. Gentleman would allow one vote to be taken. He feared the hon. Gentleman had misunderstood the character of the debate of that evening, for he thought there was great anxiety expressed to advance all necessary measures. They would never reach the Mutiny Act unless they got on; and he hoped at least one vote would be taken.

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, that if this vote were allowed, the whole of the Naval Estimates would be taken.

MR. HUME said, that it had been agreed that no vote should be taken after twelve o'clock if it was objected to. He should be sorry if the right hon. Gentleman the

Chancellor of the Exchequer began wrongly | guished members of the resuscitated Antiat the very first.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER would not press a vote against any rule that had been made; but this was an exception which proved the rule, and the circumstances under which it was proposed were peculiar.

Corn-Law League rose in his place and
denied that there was any necessity for
such a measure. While he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) was always ready to
consult the predominant feeling of the
House, and to defer to the general senti-
ments of its Members, he thought that as
there was to be an interval before this subject
was to be brought forward again, it would
be extremely desirable for the noble Lord
to summon his supporters again, and get
them to agree as to what measures they
deemed to be necessary.
Before the noble
Lord lectured him, and stated that he would
support Votes of Supply, but not measures
which would waste time-among others,
such an important measure as the estab-
lishing of the Militia, which the noble Lord
the Member for Tiverton said was most ne-

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he would agree to the vote being taken. He had never concurred in the opinion of his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), that no vote should be taken after midnight. If there was any objection to the number of 39,000 men, the House would no doubt be ready to hear it. Another reason for agreeing to the vote, was, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had that night heard the opinions of many Members, with respect to the expediency of the Government advising a dissolution of Parlia-cessary-it would perhaps be expedient for ment, after the necessary business had been gone through, without the House being called on to take into consideration any of the other measures which the Government had stated they were about to bring forward. Perhaps, before Friday, the next day for going into Committee of Supply, the Government would reconsider their course, and concur in the wish which had been expressed in the debate of that night. He should be sorry to give a vote adverse to the Government in Committee of Supply, if they merely went on with Supply, without entering on measures with a view to a protracted Session.

the noble Lord to come to an understanding with his friends as to what measures were not necessary to be passed, before an appeal was made to the country.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL had not said that he should oppose all measures that were brought forward which would waste time, but that he would agree to Votes of Supply, but not to other measures which might be brought forward, and which would lengthen the Session, and, although useful were not necessary.

MR. HUME said, he wished to have an opportunity of remarking on the distribution of this very force, and to show that if it was properly distributed there would be no necessity for any additional force-but he had no objection to go on.

MR. W. WILLIAMS did not object to the number of men, but he objected to taking a vote after twelve o'clock.

Vote agreed to; as were also,
(2) 1,449,0547., Wages to ditto.
(3) 506,5781., Victuals to ditto.
Resolutions to be reported.
House resumed.

House adjourned at One o'clock.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the noble Lord only did him justice in believing that it was his duty and his pleasure to listen to the sentiments of the House, and to defer to its predominant feeling; but he was sure the noble Lord would not ask to come on the sudden to a decision on this point. He had watched with much attention the proceedings of the evening; but when the noble Lord said that all the Government was required to do was to pass the proper measures necessary for the service of the country, he must remind him that on that evening there was a very important difference between two of the most eminent supporters of the noble Lord with regard to what measures were necessary. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston), who had given a very guarded encouragement to the Government, had most unequivocally declared the imminent necessity of a measure for the establishment of the Militia. Im- Bill read 3 (according to Order); mediately after one of the most distin- Amendments made. Bill passed.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, March 16, 1852.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL.-3a County Courts
Further Extension.

COUNTY COURTS FURTHER EXTENSION

BILL.

1

this subject, he should take further time to consider it.

LORD BEAUMONT gave due credit to the exertions of the noble Lord, but he regretted the course he had taken, or had been obliged by others to take, in respect to this Bill. They had now three or four Acts of Parliament, besides the Bill before them, for regulating the jurisdiction of County Courts. Most of those Acts amended one another; and he thought that the noble Lord should have aimed rather at consolidating those already in existence, than at adding the numerous, though trifling, Amendinents contained in this Bill, which increased the difficulty of collating, without bestowing fresh powers upon these Courts. But the measure of the noble Lord did not aim at consolidation, neither did it bestow any original jurisdiction on the Judges. It was an attempt to facilitate the operations of the Chancery Courts. The Bill of the noble Lord was merely one to enable County Court Judges to do what is already done in the Masters' Offices. The noble Lord had held out to the public the idea that his object was to give to the County Courts original jurisdiction in equity; but the Bill did not confer any such thing. For his part, he regretted extremely that the noble Lord did not persevere with the 23rd Clause, whereby a barrister was allowed to practise uninstructed by an attorney. As long as it was a question merely of etiquette amongst members of the Bar, he (Lord Beaumont) abstained from interfering; but the public were, as the Bill now stood, also interested; they knew what was best for them, and they should, therefore, have been left a full option to employ a barrister with or without the intervention of an attorney. The client was the proper person to judge what was the best for his own interest. He wished to know whether it was the intention of the noble Lord to bring in any further measures having reference to these County Courts?

LORD BROUGHAM said, that he could not help congratulating the House upon the passing of the Bill. He by no means intended to say that further improvements were not necessary; but if the present measure should receive the ultimate sanction of the Legislature, a great benefit would be conferred upon the country. He was happy to observe that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack viewed the subject in the same light as he did; and he yet trusted that upon further consideration the late Lord Chancellor and the Chief Justice would see grounds for altering their opinions upon some minor matters upon which they were at issue. He was sorry that there was still no provision in the Bill by which a practising barrister should be allowed to go into court uninstructed by an attorney. The prohibition in the Act of 1846 remained unrepealed. Contrary to his own opinion he had at present yielded that point. Differing from those who were opposed to him, he considered that it was a subject which should be left to the etiquette of the profession; and he hoped that his noble and learned Friends would adopt the only course which could be adopted, namely, the removal of the restriction which at present excluded barristers from these courts, thus leaving it to the heads of the profession themselves to settle what should be the etiquette, as it was in every other Court of any description; the County Courts forming the only exception. Of the importance of these Courts, too high an estimate could not be formed. He found, by returns to Parliament, that during the four years from 1846 to 1850, the number of causes which had been brought into the County Courts amounted to 2,400,000, and that 6,000,000l. had been the amount of money recovered under their jurisdiction. It was a singular fact that in actions for sums of money from 51. to 50l., in which parties had the option of trial by jury, the proportion submitted to a jury was only 1 in 45. That was a circumstance which had given cause for great reflection in his mind, whether it LORD BROUGHAM, in reply, said that would not be just and expedient to give to he had postponed his Bill for conferring parties in all courts the same option in equitable jurisdiction upon the County matters of debt and contract. He by no Courts, because he understood a Bill dealmeans intended to extend this option to ing with that subject was likely to be the matters of tort, as where the action lay for fruit of the labours of a Commission which injury to person or reputation, but only to had bestowed much attention on the subcases of debt and contract. For this pur- ject. He rejoiced to think that this expecpose he had prepared a Bill; but as he tation had not been disappointed. The knew that some of his noble and learned learned Commissioners had reported, reFriends differed from him in opinion upon commending a most important change in

the whole system of Chancery procedure, The numbers continued to increase yearly 1132 and this report was adopted by the present-in 1843 the schools amounted to 2,192, Government. It had been announced in educating 353,340 children; and in 1846 the House of Commons last night that the those numbers were augmented respectively plan of the Commissioners was to be sup- to 3.600 schools, and 455,415 children. ported by the Government, with the de- In 1848 the number of children attending termination to pass it into a law as speedily those schools had risen to 507,000. In as possible. By this he meant the whole 1849, the extensive emigration had diminplan of the Commissioners. to the consolidation of the County Courts period to which the last report on the subWith respect ished these numbers somewhat; but at the Bills, it would take a very considerable ject brings down the account the number time before that could be effected; but he of children attending the schools was entirely agreed in the necessity of it, as he 511,623; and he had no doubt that at the had stated the first day of the Session. present moment the number reached a still higher amount. The system, then, was rather carefully guarded and preserved by one which ought not to be touched, but the Government. Christian education existed in any part of No better system of the civilised world. It had the peculiar advantage, too, for Ireland, of being a united system of education, conducted with the greatest care and impartiality; and the books of the society were all of such an excellent character that they were sought after greedily, not only in this country, but on the Continent. Besides the ordinary also seventeen model agricultural schools in schools to which he had referred, there were different parts of Ireland. Such being the case, it was painful to him to have to direct attention to a recent speech of the Attorney General for Ireland on the subject. He did not find fault with any particular passage in the right hon. and learned Gentleman's (Mr. Napier's) speech; it was the general purport and tone of his speech he wished to direct attention to, and the general purport of it undoubtedly was to cast blame upon the present system of national education in Ireland. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated that he had every reason to hope that he would be able to induce Government to change the system. He said that "Lord Derby had told him that he would have an honest inquiry into the management of these schools; and, when he said an honest inquiry, he meant an honest inquiry into the working of the system, to see what deviation had taken place from the original rules, to see whether it was united, and what could be done with it, in order to meet the objections of the clergy." It was the well-considered determination of Lord Grey's Government that the system of national education in Ireland should be a united system; and it was clearly impossible that a separate system could go on at the same time. The

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND). The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE asked if Her Majesty's Ministers intend to propose to Parliament alteration in the present Application of Public Funds any for Educational Purposes in Ireland? Those who, at various times, had taken a warm interest in the welfare of Ireland had, he believed, always founded their hopes of effecting a permanent improvement in the state of that country in placing the education of the people of Ireland upon a sound footing. year 1832, after a careful investigation In the of the subject by the authorities, under the supervision of Lord Grey's Government, the system now in operation in Ireland was devised and carried into execution under the immediate direction of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) opposite. That system had been adopted after grave deliberation, and after full examination and reflection upon the whole subject, after taking counsel with the hierarchy both of the Established and of the Roman Catholic Churches, and after consultation with the best authorities on the subject, both in Ireland and in this country. The noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) bore great part in the preparation of that system; he certainly had the honour and credit of introducing the measure on the subject to Parliament, and he was sure the noble Earl could not at present, and probably never would, look back to any action of his life with more satisfaction than he might to the introduction of the national system of education in Ireland, whereby that country had been most permanently and materially benefited. The progress which had been made by the system in the popular estimation was very great. In the second year after its establishment there were in operation 785 schools, giving education to 107,000 scholars.

Lord Brougham

Attorney General for Ireland said that Lord Derby had no objection to an inquiry; but he (the Marquess of Clanricarde (took exceptions to the whole of that right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, for going forth, as it did, to the people of Ireland upon such high authority, and addressed, as it was, to the highest educational institution in Ireland, it was impossible to imagine that it would not give rise to the impression that Her Majesty's Government was disposed to extend its support to other systems of education besides that which was carried on under the superintendence of the National Board. If their Lordships considered the difficulties with which that system had had to contend, and the violent antagonism by which it had been encountered on all sides, they must be prepared to award the highest degree of praise to the learned and reverend persons who had been placed at the head of the Board, superintended the progress of the system, and done so much to render it successful; and encouragement given to any rival system could not fail to seriously embarass those eminent persons. This was a question which ought not to be in contest at all. He hoped the Government would maintain the present system; but if it were held out that a doubt upon the well-working of that system was entertained by the Government, it must have a very injurious effect throughout the whole country. He thought, therefore, he was doing no bad service to the Government by asking the noble Earl whether it was his intention, or the intention of the Irish Government, to propose to Parliament any alteration in the present application of public funds for educational purposes in Ireland?

The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships and the noble Marquess himself must suppose that if there be any one man in the land who takes a personal interest in the well-working of the national system of education in Ireland, it must be the individual who has now the honour of addressing your Lordships. But I take no further credit to myself than that of having been the Secretary of State for Irish Affairs under the Government which examined into the previous reports of various Commissions, and the several plans which had been propounded by many learned and pains-taking persons, and which came to the conclusion that it was necessary to introduce a new system of combined education in Ireland, and of having had the duty-I might say the

good fortune-to be the organ of that Government in framing the original resolutions, and introducing that system into Ireland. My Lords, I have watched with the deepest interest the progressive increase which has taken place in the number of schools and scholars under the system which was then introduced; and undoubtedly I believe that no step which can now be taken would have any effect in weakening the influence and the hold which that system has produced on the minds of the people of Ireland. I believe it has deeply rooted itself in the institutions and in the affections of the people, and that the progress of the system is as certain as that its results have been, on the whole, beneficial. Greatly as the numbers of the schools and the pupils have from time to time increased, I believe also that increase has not been more than commensurate with the improvement in point of the quality of the education which is now given in Ireland under the auspices of the National Board, as compared with the quality of the education which was given in Ireland twenty years ago. And, morcover, I believe that if at this moment all Government assistance were withdrawn from that and every other description of schools in Ireland, still this great and permanent advantage would have arisen from the institution of the national schools-that the people of that country now understand and appreciate what a good education is, as compared with that which was prevalent there twenty or twenty-five years ago, and that they would not be satisfied with an education of an inferior quality to that which, by means of the national system, they now receive. Nor do I think, my Lords, that it would be in the power of any class of persons, however great the influence they may exercise over the population, to support schools of an inferior character, in opposition to those of the superior character administered by the Board; and gladly do I join in the tribute which the noble Marquess has offered to those reverend and earned persons to whose assiduity and exertions the progress of that system owes far more than it does to any assistance which has been given it by the Government. I have spoken of this as a system of education; but at the same time it is impossible that the noble Marquess should not acknowledge, as of course I must acknowledge myself, that in the course of the twenty years which have elapsed since the system was first adopted, various modi

« AnteriorContinuar »