Mr. O'HARA. The lowest percentage?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Yes.

Mr. O'HARA. Well, at the present time there is no bonded indebtedness in the city of Washington. Isn't that true?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I believe that is a fact; whether they are borrowing any money from the Treasury I do not know, but in the past the Federal Government has loaned money to the District of Columbia.

Mr. O'HARA. Well, what is the situation now? You made a study of it, Mr. Auchincloss, in the last 2 years?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Yes; there is no bonded indebtedness today, if that is what you want.

Mr. O'HARA. That is all I want to know.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. You have got it, Mr. O'Hara. I have the idea you knew it all the time.

Mr. O'HARA. We are making a record now.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I am not ashamed of it.

Mr. O'HARA. I assume that has some importance.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I am not ashamed of it.

Mr. O'HARA. Now you and I have differed in the past. In fact, I was one of the violent critics of this dual voting provision which you have in the bill. I still don't think it has been very well covered as to what there will be to do in the matter of checking; not only what you have mentioned in your statement, Mr. Auchincloss, if I may refer to it just a second here.

Mr. TEAGUE. Will the gentleman yield there?

Mr. O'HARA. Yes.

Mr. TEAGUE. Mr. Auchincloss, why do you think the founding fathers established the District? Why didn't they put the capital

within a State?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Why didn't they put the capital within a State?

Mr. TEAGUE. Why did they create the District?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Well, I do not know; they were able to get this grant from Maryland and Virginia, to have a central seat for the Government, and it seemed to be wise to have it without the jurisdiction of any particular State. I certainly subscribe to that.

Mr. O'HARA. Mr. Auchincloss, has the staff made any study or furnished any of the decisions of the several States in connection with the decisions of the highest courts of those States in the matter of voting in the jurisdiction of the State as affecting not only residence but citizenship?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Do you mean whether the resident of one State could vote in another State and still maintain his domicile?

Mr. O'HARA. Right.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I think that the States do not extend that privilege, as the results of our studies would show. In other words, as far as I know there is no dual voting permitted by any State with another State.

Mr. O'HARA. Well you go on and say, and I quote this language here:

This means that a person who is qualified to vote in District elections but maintains a legal domicile in one of the States, need not surrender that domicile in order to vote here.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Right.

Mr. O'HARA. You mean "not surrender that domicile in order to vote," but the courts may surrender it for him. Isn't that true?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I do not know. May I ask you a question? Mr. O'HARA. Just a minute. Let me ask a couple more here right in that connection.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. All right.

Mr. O'HARA. Reading further from your statement:

Such a person, under these bills, would be permitted to vote in the District of Columbia for members of the Council and the School Board (but not for Delegate).

Now as a practical matter, Mr. Auchincloss, just how would the Election Board control that voting in an election in the District of Columbia, under your proposal?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. People who claim eligibility to vote would have to register and when they registered they would have to file an affidavit that provided where their domicile was. Now if they claim they are domiciled in Minnesota, they would be permitted to vote if qualified on every other count; they would be permitted to vote for local offices but not for Delegate to Congress. The reason for that was a person domiciled in Minnesota would be able to vote for his own Member of Congress and he could not vote for two Members of Congress.

Mr. O'HARA. Well, what would be the effect of that upon his residence if he claimed legal residence in Minnesota, if he just voted for the School Board and Council?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Eminent lawyers, the legislative counsel, and others, have advised us it would not, as far as they can tell; it would not vitiate his standing in any way at all.

Mr. O'HARA. Let me ask you, do you know of any form of election, as a practical matter, where a man comes in to vote and how, as a practical matter, he would be told, "You can only vote-you are a resident of New Jersey and you can't vote for the Delegate." How would that be worked out in a practical way in the election procedures of the District?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSs. If he claimed his domicile as I claim my domicile in New Jersey, he would not be registered to vote for the Delegate, which comes in other years than the vote for the local Council.

Mr. O'HARA. Well would the same man who was domiciled here, how would the check be made as to whether he was eligible to vote for the Delegate?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Well he would file an affidavit when he comes to register what he claims his domicile is.

Mr. O'HARA. Well, now, you also feel that this bill would be a relieving of the burden which is imposed upon the Congress from the so-called housekeeping features of the District of Columbia, and yet every act of the local Council would have to be passed upon by a committee of the District and then passed upon by the House and by the Senate or by one or the other of them, unless there was a veto. Isn't that true?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. That is right.

Mr. O'HARA. So where would the burden of Congress be relieved in any way in that regard?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. If it seemed necessary that we should have an ordinance to kill starlings or some other act of that kind, it would be threshed out at the Council level; they would hold the hearings, they would come to the decision whether they wanted to enact such an ordinance. The ordinance would then be drawn up and passed on by them and then it would come before this Committee. It does seem to me that if such a bill were passed and approved at the Council level, that this committee would have no objection to it.

Mr. O'HARA. You don't mean to say we would not have the responsibility of going into that or any other problems?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I would not question the responsibility, but I would view it rightly as the responsibility of the Council.

Mr. O'HARA. Do you mean we would merely rubber-stamp it without going into that particular ordinance?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I would not call it rubber-stamping.

The bill would be given proper attention.

Mr. O'HARA. It would be given a hearing just the same as the same bill proposed now?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. There are many bills we don't need to have hearings on and many bills would be eliminated if hearings were held at the Council level.

Mr. O'HARA. How could you, Mr. Auchincloss, under your own bill get away from the responsibility of a hearing before the proper committee?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. This bill

Mr. O'HARA. Any bill. Take the starling ordinance, whether the starlings were going to be killed in the District or not. Take that as an example. Why wouldn't it be the resposibility of Congress to pass on that question, even though the City Council had passed upon

it?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I am ready to accept all that and if the City Council would act promptly on a measure of that kind, and there are many of them, it would relieve me and you coming to meetings and listening to the whole thing all over again. I would be glad to read the record of the Council's hearings to see whether the matter has been attended to, whether people have been given an opportunity to be heard.

Take daylight saving, one of the great things in the controversy we had in Congress about daylight saving, and we were debating a whole day on it, was whether the people of the District wanted it.

Mr. O'HARA. Well I don't think it has ever been determined, has it? Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Well if you have people here in the City Council and had it threshed out before them, you jolly well will get a vote of what they want.

Mr. O'HARA. Well people here would complain to their elected member or the Council and would still come up and complain to a Member of Congress who was serving on the District Committee, or who might not be serving on the District Committee, but they would complain of the action of the Council, wouldn't they?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I think that if you had a Delegate here they would go and complain to the Delegate.

Mr. O'HARA. Do you think that matter of daylight saving time is merely an ordinance affecting the District of Columbia, or do you

think that it affects all people who come here to do business in the District of Columbia at the seat of government, Mr. Auchincloss?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Well I think I would like to answer that question this way: I think that the people in the District of Columbia who pay taxes and live here ought to be heard and their wishes ought to govern. I come from a State where we have daylight saving. I would vote for it because I come from that State. I do not know whether you have it or not. There are others who don't and whose vote would be given accordingly, but what do the people here want? They are going to have to live under it.

Mr. O'HARA. Would you join in a movement to move the seat of Government to a place where it would be separated from the problems of the people of the District of Columbia, so that it would be really the seat of Government, Mr. Auchincloss, in that regard?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. No; but I don't just get the purport of that statement. I wish you would make it again.

Mr. O'HARA. After all, the District of Columbia is the seat of Government.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Yes.

Mr. O'HARA. And many hundreds of thousands of people come here every year because it is the seat of the Government, not because it is the District of Columbia. Isn't that true?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Yes, I think it is true; there is no doubt of it. Mr. O'HARA. That is the problem that we have in issue before us, isn't it, on the matter of home rule?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. About visitors here?

Mr. O'HARA. I am not talking about visitors but people who come here to do business because it is the seat of Government.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Do you mean to see you and me?

Mr. O'HARA. Oh, no; not necessarily us, but to see the President. Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Yes, certainly.

Mr. O'HARA. Or to see the various heads or branches of the Government or the agencies of the Government. They are not just visitors. They are here on important business, to them, or for their communities.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. What has that got to do with home rule?

Mr. O'HARA. It has a lot to do.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Why?

Mr. O'HARA. Because it is the seat of Government and not just the District of Columbia.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Do you mean this is the seat of Government and the people are taxed to the tune of I do not know how many hundreds of millions of dollars and they should not be given any voice in the management?

Mr. O'HARA. Don't put those words in my mouth. I did not say it. Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I am trying to find out what you did say.

Mr. O'HARA. Mr. Auchincloss, in the consideration of this problem we are dealing not only with those who live here and their right to vote, but it is the seat of Government. Isn't that true?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Will you say that again?

Mr. O'HARA. I say we are dealing not only with the problem of the right of individuals who happen to be temporarily or permanently resident here and their right to vote, but also the fact that this is the seat of Government. Isn't that true?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. That is true. That is now why I want to give them a chance to say something if they pay taxes. We have adopted a sales tax here. Those people who come and live here temporarily have to pay those taxes and those taxes go into the expense of the Government.

Mr. O'HARA. And the people also who come here to visit here and do business here will pay that tax, too, won't they?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Sure.

Mr. HARRIS. We are glad to have the chairman of our committee here, Mr. McMillan.

Mr. McMillan has been very much interested in this problem over a period of time. I wonder if you have a question you would like to ask our colleague.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Auchincloss, I believe you are the author of H. R. 2505. Is that right?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I am testifying on H. R. 28, but I will be glad to try to answer any questions. H. R. 28 is my bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Who in the District of Columbia brought so much pressure on you to sponsor this bill?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSs. I am sorry; I did not hear you. May I come up a little closer?

The CHAIRMAN. What organizations in the District of Columbia have impressed upon you the need for changing the Government of the District of Columbia?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Well, I think it is in a very disorganized state; that is, the general corporate structure of the District government. There are some parts of the Government that are responsible to the Federal Government and some parts are responsible to the local Commissioners. There is a division of authority. It has grown up pretty rapidly.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't think you understand my question.

Won't you agree with me this is a rather bad time to be thinking of turning the seat of Government over to any municipality, with the unrest throughout the country that we are having? There is nothing that would please the Reds and Socialists more than to get control of this seat of Government. Isn't that right?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Yes, I suppose the Communists would like very much to get control of the District of Columbia.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I suppose that is what they would like to do. I don't see how home rule has anything to do with that at all, because the people who reside here are disfranchised and that is just what the Communists want. They do not want freedom of expression or opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, as I understand it, what you think the people of the District of Columbia want is a vote.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Want what?

The CHAIRMAN. Most of the people in the District of Columbia, you think what they want is a vote? Is that right?

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Well I think they ought to have the knowledge and the feeling that they have a very definite share in the control of their Government.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. That is brought about by the vote.