inspector, if he wants it, although he knows nothing about the construction of roads. I have heard of one instance, within the year, where they set some stakes for telephone poles that ran along the road, and the inspector ordered the contractor to lay the road according to those stakes, which, of course, were haphazard and rather line than grade stakes. The next thing that happened, the office of public roads here in Washington sent a man out, on the request of some of the citizens who did not think it was being built correctly or according to specifications, to examine, and the result was that the work was stopped, and it is laying unfinished up in Elkhart County now. There are other cases where such happenings go through without objection, regardless of whether the road is built properly or not. I often have letters from men asking if I would permit such a change in the specifications to be made if I were the engineer in their locality, and I have various questions of that character. In spite of that, owing to the fact that we have a large supply of gravel which is easily obtainable, a good many roads have been built.

Mr. AUSTIN. What are your gravel roads costing you now?

Mr. KENYON. Some of those gravel roads were built by working out the road tax, and no one knows what they did cost.

Mr. MADDEN. What do you know of the method of building roads in Porter County and Lake County, in Indiana?

Mr. KENYON. Porter County and Lake County are up near Chicago. They were built mostly under the 3 mile gravel road law and assessed as a charge against the township.

Mr. MADDEN. It is against the abutting property?

Mr. KENYON. Part of it. Where roads are built by "assessment the cost is spread 1 mile each way, and those built by "taxation" were assessed over the whole township.

Mr. MADDEN. What they do there is this: They agree upon a system of roads, whether it has 10 or 12 miles, around a certain square, or whatever it may be; then they survey it, they make specifications, ask for bids, and before they let the contract they issue bonds payable in one, two, three, four, and five years.

Mr. KENYON. Yes; and up to 10 and 20 years.

Mr. MADDEN. Then they sell the bonds before they let the contract, so that they have a certainty that the money is in the treasury before the contract is let. Those roads are all built scientifically.

Mr. KENYON. You have only partly stated it. If you take the statement that I made a moment ago—that is, as the law provides— they had no other law than the one I just indicated by which they could build the roads. A number of men could get together and say,

you will sign for our road we will sign for yours," and others would say the same, and in that way was built up the series of roads leading into Chicago.

Mr. MADDEN. The fact is they have built more miles of road through these counties than any other counties in the United States within the last four or five years.

Mr. KENYON. No; that is not true. They have between 600 and 700 miles in Lake County and a less number in Porter, which is just south of it, whereas down in Park County, which is south of Terra Haute the only place of any size in that county is Rockville, of

which you probably have never heard-they have over 1,000 miles of so-called improved roads that were built by that same process. Nearly every township is up to its limit of taxation. They say, "We signed for your road, now you sign for ours." And then the people on next one would do the same thing.

Mr. MADDEN. What effect does that have on the price of the farm products to the farmer? Has it increased the value of his product to him the year round?

Mr. KENYON. Of course, those roads are not built well enough to say that he could haul in the winter months. They are built of gravel and when the winter comes the wheels of an ordinarily loaded vehicle would go down very deep at this season of the year.

Mr. MADDEN. What about the roads that are built of crushed stone?

Mr. KENYON. They are arresting drivers all over the State of Indiana now, anyone who starts to haul a 2-ton load. We have a law which provides that a wheel must be of a certain width to haul a certain load when the roads are wet, and so forth. They were destroying the roads so rapidly, the soft roads that were not properly constructed, when I left that they felt they could not afford to keep them up, they could not afford to tax themselves in order to maintain them unless the law is enforced.

Mr. MADDEN. What is your idea as to the comparative value of building roads by townships, counties, or States?

Mr. KENYON. I think that our extreme local way is not the best one. It has not proven so in any country or any State in the world, at any time that I know of.

Mr. MADDEN. What would you suggest as the smallest political division to take charge?

Mr. KENYON. I do not say that any political division should take charge of all the roads.

Mr. MADDEN. You mean that the State should not?

Mr. KENYON. There are certain roads that are of such supreme importance that everybody is concerned with those roads, and to that extent the Nation should help to build and maintain them, and so cetrain roads should be State roads, and certain roads should be county roads, and certain roads should be township roads, with us, just as they found in France, Germany, Austria, and other countries abroad that it was necessary to divide the roads in national, departmental, and arrondissement according to the traffic, or according to the importance of the road. You may hold your meetings for five years. but I do not believe you will find any system of taxation that will be entirely equitable in this matter. It is a thing that comes about in the course of time, as all systems of taxation have to work themselves along equitable lines by stages. One man says that he has a road in front of his house, and he does not want to be taxed to help build a road in another locality. One of our Senators said to me. and he wrote to a gentleman in Illinois the same thing. "We have roads in Indiana. Why should Indiana be taxed to build a road in Illinois." That is the same proposition, that a man in a township, who has a good stone road in front of his place, says to the one who has not, "Why should I be taxed to build that road for you. You pay for your own road."

Mr. MADDEN. What would you think of the feasibility of the Government cooperating with the States in the matter of road building and maintenance?

Mr. KENYON. My idea is something along this line. I have studied the road question, as I have said, in Europe and our own country, and the only place that I have ever been able to find where they had a splendid system of highways, was where they had National and State cooperation. They have them in France, Germany, Austria, and in Italy and Spain.

Mr. MADDEN. But the central government in those countries is the supreme power.

Mr. KENYON. Oh, no; it is not. France is a Republic the same as our country, and they have departments and arrondissements. The central government may not levy a local tax in any one of those arrondissements for the purpose of building a road, but it must come fro mthe local people, the same as it does with us. They secure that cooperation by making it a condition that when a State contributes a certain amount of money for the building of a road, that at the same time that local community must contribute a like amount, or whatever the sum is. They have a sliding scale in France, as you probably know, by which the local community can contribute a certain amount. The two are spent together and it is done under the supervision, or with the approval and under the inspection of the National Government, and in order to get a sufficient number of engineers and skilled men for the construction of roads they have established a School of Bridges and Roads in France, much the same as we have at West Point, and Annapolis, our military and naval schools. A young man graduates in this school, and by a couple of years practice, becomes an expert engineer. If you go through Ohio, Indiana, and other States, you will find that a man who has worked out his road tax for a number of years, feels quite competent to say just how a road should be built, he knows just as much about it as they do he thinks, and as a matter of fact, concerning a rather practical thing, he does know that, but when it comes to a problem that requires an expert engineer, he falls down, and then the road may be destroyed by reason of his inability or lack of knowledge to take care of it. It is the old story that for the want of a nail the shoe was lost, and for the want of the shoe the horse was lost, etc.

Mr. MADDEN. Suppose the Federal Government should enact a law to cooperate with the States in the construction and maintenance of roads; under whose direction would you think the money should be spent?

Mr. KENYON. Of course, that is a matter of judgment, but I believe if it were purely a national route-and there may be a few such routes as that-it should be expended under the direction of the Federal Government, but if the National Government was merely contributing with the States it would be possible to draw a bill that would provide that the States were to pay half and the Government half; that the law should prescribe the kind of specifications under which the road should be built and maintained, and the States should give a guaranty that they would supply an equal amount of money not only for construction, but for maintenance. Then one man as

an inspector or supervisor of that road, from the National Government, would be sufficient. In France they have comparatively few Government men. It is the local man that takes care of the road.

Mr. MADDEN. Then your idea is that if the Federal Government cooperated with the States in building and maintaining roads, the jurisdiction over the road and the construction and the maintenance should be left with the State?

Mr. KENYON. No. The construction should be done by the State, but with the approval and under the inspection of a Federal officer. They can put a man on a motorcycle, and that one inspector can inspect a thousand miles of road or more for repairs.

Mr. AUSTIN. If you were a member of this commission, what would you favor?

Mr. KENYON. I will give you my idea about that. First, while I can say that theoretically I believe in what Judge Lowe says, I doubt whether you can get such a proposition as that, but why should you not do this: Take this National Old Trails Road, this bill of Mr. Boreland's, and I will answer by making this general statement which will answer your proposition, I think.

Mr. AUSTIN. You are going to discuss a proposition which you have just stated you did not think we could get through.

Mr. KENYON. No, I am not, except by a very big modification. Suppose that you take this proposition: There is started in Indianapolis a proposition to give $10,000,000 for an ocean to ocean highway. I understand they have between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000 already subscribed for the proposition, which I think it would be fair to say could be utilized for this purpose. If the Nation and each State contributed a certain portion you could build that road and have it ready in two years, for the great exposition.

Mr. AUSTIN. Do you mean each State along that road, or each State in the Union?

Mr. KENYON. Each State along that road contributes, but not each State in the Union.

Mr. AUSTIN. You mean those 11 particular States?

Mr. KENYON. Yes. Let the United States pay one-half or threefourths of it, but provide for it in that way. I believe Mr. Page, the Director of Public Roads, estimated that the cost would be about $30,000,000 altogether to build a high-grade road. You must remember a large portion of this road has been graded, has had metal put on it, and the bridges constructed, and the drains just need cleaning out in a great many places, and you have already a thousand miles of road with just a surface to put on. Suppose that you put on a modern surface and you can do it within two years-you would have that road completed before you could be ready to do much with this subject in a big way.

Mr. AUSTIN. You mean you can build this road in time for the exposition?

Mr. KENYON. Yes, sir; it can be done easily, but it requires the cooperation of the States. But what have you then? You have no more expenditure in that $20,000,000 than you would have under one of these other bills that would provide a like amount in a less period of time. More people would use that road in the entire United States in the next two or three years than any other road. I

think it would be safe to say a quarter of the population would use that road in some place within two years after it was built.

Mr. AUSTIN. You want the States to aid and the judge wants the Government to foot the entire bill.

Mr. KENYON. I am talking about a different proposition from what the judge advocated.

Here would be a great highway running across our vast domainalmost straight through the center of it, easily accessible at short distances to a very large number of people, and, in fact, to a quarter of the entire population of the Nation. That would be an object lesson in road building, and it is an opportunity for studying how roads should be constructed and maintained, the density of traffic, and various systems of administration. It would show what is the best plan of cooperation between the State and Union, whether it is advisable in places along the line to have that cooperation extend to the counties and townships, and other valuable information which you gentlemen are now seeking. I do not believe in the counties and townships participating. I do not believe it is practicable for them to do so. You would get more information in one year from the statistics that would come in from the use of this highway as to what this Nation needs than you could get by academic discussion in five times the period. Nearly every place where advancement has been made has been due to the people being convinced by seeing these things. The Japanese have a saying that one look is better than a thousand words. That is true. So it is with road building. While in New York State I was talking with Mr. McClintock, who is State engineer, at Rochester, and I said to him, "What effect does this highway commission for your State roads have on your State road building?" He said it had completely changed the ideas of the farmers upon the question of road building; that where they used to want $1,500 and $3,000 roads, as soon as they saw a good, first-class road that was hard the year around, their petitions invariably-whether the road was to be paid for by the State or county-were asking for these high-grade roads, even though they were locally going to pay for them. He said that it taxed the ingenuity of his department to keep them down to what he thought would be an economical road for them. They did not take into consideration the density of traffic, whereas the highway commission did; that they counted the traffic just the same as they do in France.

You must remember this one thing: That from 80 to 90 per cent of the traffic of all our roads passes over from 10 to 20 per cent of the roads, so, therefore, allowing that we have 2,250,000 miles of road in this country, there are only 250,000 miles of road that have any considerable amount of traffic that need to be considered by the United States and the States together. The rest of the roads are local, because the roads I have spoken of carry from 80 to 90 per cent of the traffic. If you say the Nation is interested in one-fifth of that 10 per cent of roads, what have you got? You have only about 40,000 miles of road in this entire Nation that have any considerable amount of traffic on them that the Nation need be concerned in. With the vast resources of this country what could you do? In a few years you could have those roads, with very moderate appro