some responsibility, as his name was upon the back of the Bill. In reference to his remarks, he wished to express a word of caution. The noble Lord said that that Bill was drawn upon the lines of the Intermediate Education Act; and, as that Act was passed by a large majority of that House, he seemed to think that the House was obliged to support beforehand a Bill on University Education drawn upon the same lines. With reference to that remark, he would make two observations. In the first place, no doubt, the Intermediate Education Act of last Session was sup

should be allowed to be members of the affiliated Colleges, or were they to come in as outside students attending the particular lectures? If they were to be allowed to be members of the affiliated Colleges, he saw no distinction whatever between the proposal of the present constitution and the Queen's Colleges. But if they were to come in as outside students attending the lectures, there would still be, as far as he could see, little distinction. If there was no distinction, how would this scheme satisfy those aspirations which it was the professed object of the Bill to realize? The hon. Member might be able to ex-ported by a large majority; but there plain the difficulties which occurred to him on a future occasion; but, at present, it seemed to him that certain elements in the problem had been passed over; and he did not see how the scheme would satisfy those demands to control not only the education, but the moral life, of the student, which were insisted upon by the Roman Catholic Hierarchy of Ireland.

MR. FAWCETT observed, that there was a difficulty in discussing a Bill which they had not seen. In making that remark, he was not referring to the observations of the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney), and he must not be understood to express any opinion upon that Bill. In the observations which he should make, he would only ask the hon. Member for Roscommon to explain certain points which were not quite clear to him in what they must admit was otherwise a very clear and able statement. It would be paying the hon. Member for Roscommon a poor compliment to judge of his Bill before seeing it; and they ought to be particularly careful on this subject, remembering what took place when the late Government, in 1873, introduced their memorable Bill, and the somewhat foolish position in which some very distinguished Members of that House placed themselves. They listened to the extremely able speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Gladstone), and became quite enthusiastic; but some of those who began by blessing ended by doing exactly the reverse. He should not have uttered a single word on that occasion, had it not been for a remark of the noble Lord the Member for County Waterford (Lord Charles Beresford), who spoke with

was a small minority who had very strong objections to certain parts of that Bill. But that was not the point. An Irish University Bill might be drawn on the same lines as an Irish Intermediate Education Bill; but that was not the slightest reason why those who supported an Intermediate Education Bill should necessarily support an Irish University Education Bill drawn on the same lines. An Irish Interīnediate Education Bill dealt with a field unoccupied

there was no system of Intermediate Education in Ireland until last Session; but with regard to Irish University Education, the thing was entirely different. The one ground was not occupied; but in the case of the other edifice they wished to erect, they would have to consider how it would influence the University institutions which were already in existence. He should not express any opinion as to what might be the effect of that measure, considered from the point of view that there were at the present moment two distinct Universities in Ireland; he would only point out to the House-and he thought the House would agree with him in this obvious remark—that it did not necessarily follow that those who were in favour of the Irish Intermediate Education Act would necessarily be in favour of an Irish University Education Bill framed, as had been stated, on the same lines. Further than that, he would express no opinion, favourable or otherwise, with regard to the Bill; but he was sure that his hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon would only consider that he was expressing the general opinion of the House when he complimented him upon the extremely candid way in which he put his proposals forward. After the

candour with which he had approached | hon. Friend. It was the system of the subject, they would all feel it due to payment by results. The people were him, when the Bill was printed, to en- to be allowed to receive their educadeavour to approach the matter in the tion where they liked; but when they same spirit of candour; and he was came to the test. of an examination, only expressing the opinion of many then they were to come up to the stanEnglish Liberals besides himself when dard before they could receive their he said that they had but one object in degree. That was the whole basis of the view, although they might differ some- Bill. It had been most carefully dewhat as to the means of carrying it into signed to avoid trenching on the relieffect-namely, the promotion of Uni- gious prejudices and religious feelings versity Education in Ireland. of hon. Members on either side of the House; and he thought, when the Bill was considered, it would be found to be one based upon moderation and prompted by a desire for peace, and intended to insure to the people of Ireland, who so long had had reason to complain of being denied the privileges of education, which were so freely extended to the subjects of Her Majesty in other parts of the Kingdom, all the necessary means of obtaining degrees without doing a violence to their religious feelings.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY thought the hon. Member for Roscommon would not ask anything better from the House or the country than that his Bill should be considered simply on its merits. He only rose for the purpose of deprecating any discussion upon the matter until the Bill was before the House. The hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) was certainly mistaken in his statement that there was no scheme of Intermediate Education in Ireland until the Government measure of last year. He would inform him that there were plenty of intermediate schools in Ireland, but, unfortunately, they were not devoted to the education of the people of the country, but only of one section of it; and the measure adopted by the House of Commons, and introduced by the Government, was designed to fill up the hiatus which existed in that education-and which also existed at that moment in University Education in Ireland-and which arose from the fact that they could not force persons who had conscientious scruples to receive their education in schools or Colleges in which the scheme of education and the whole government of the institution was opposed to their religious convictions. The scheme that had been brought forward by his hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon was designed, as he had observed, to fill this hiatus existing in University Education. No one denied that there was ample means for secular education in Ireland, and plenty of University Colleges; but the people did not fill them. Under that state of circumstances, the Bill now introduced shortly was this-That people who desired to have a University degree could get their education in their own Colleges; and if they brought to an examination an adequate stock of learning, they could obtain that degree-that was the real basis of the Bill of his Mr. Fawcett

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Everyone must acknowledge both the importance of the question which has been brought to our notice, and also the clearness and moderation with which the hon. Member for Roscommon has explained the provisions of the Bill he desires to introduce. Everybody must feel that the House is indebted to him for the pains he has taken and the endeavour he is making to contribute to the solution of a very difficult and important problem. There is also, I think, a general feeling in this House, in which I agree, that it would be impossible for us to express any opinion upon a measure of that kind until we have had an opportunity of seeing the Bill in print, and of giving some consideration to it. As has been well observed by the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), it is impossible to judge an important scheme of this kind at first sight, and it will be well that some time should be given in order that the scheme should be considered in all its bearings. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will introduce his Bill to-night; and I have no doubt the House will gladly accord him the right to do so, in order that we may shortly have it before us in a shape which will enable us to give it full consideration. It will probably be some little time before the House will have any opportunity of expressing its opinion. The hon. Member will be able, by con

sidering the arrangements of the Order Book, and after communication with his Friends who may desire to help him, to find a day when he can bring his measure before the House, which, I have no doubt, will give it a careful and attentive consideration, and make a most candid examination of all his proposals. I think that I should be doing wrong on the present occasion, if I were to do more than express my obligation to the hon. Member for the pains he has taken in preparing his measure, and to assure him that his proposals will be received and considered by Her Majesty's Government with all the attention and care which they so well deserve.

as it was intended to do, a favourable reception. He must not, however, be understood to say that the matter had been considered, or that they, in any way, pledged themselves to accept the compromise which was offered.

THE O'CONOR DON said, that ho would make one observation with regard to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney), as he had no desire that the explanation he had given of the Bill should be in any way misunderstood. It was proposed by the Bill, with regard to affiliated Colleges, that power should be given to the Senate to pay the salaries of certain Professors professing purely secular subjects in the MR. MELDON wished to say one or affiliated Colleges. That was the full two words with reference to this subject, provision of the Bill; but he stated without entering upon the discussion that if that was not thought sufficiently of the merits of the Bill. The peculiar secure, having regard to the sentiments combination of names of hon. Members of the people of England, he would not introducing the Bill would show the object to the insertion of a provision House that they had gone a long distance that the lectures so paid for should be in the way of effecting a compromise. open to all, irrespective of their religious But he must state that, so far as he beliefs. That was the statement made was aware, the Bill had not yet been by him; and when his hon. Friend said considered either by the ecclesiastics or that, if this were so, the Lecturers in by the laity of Ireland; and it was im- affiliated Colleges would be in no difpossible upon that occasion to give any ferent position from those in the Queen's pledge that the Bill would be accepted Colleges, he ventured altogether to differ either by the clergy or by the laity of from him; and he thought that those who Ireland. He said that the more em- most understood what at present existed phatically, inasmuch as he had not heard in Ireland would differ from him essenthe right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor tially. He could not tell how it was of the Exchequer give any intimation that the hon. Gentleman saw no differwhatever that the Government were pre-ence. pared to meet them in the long way in which they had travelled towards a compromise. He wished it to be considered, therefore, that the clergy and laity of Ireland, so far as he knew, had not been consulted with reference to the Bill. Having said so much, he might state that, in his opinion, in the interests of University Education, and judging only from what he had heard from his hon. Friend with reference to the Bill, that it seemed to be one which would give satisfaction. He said this, not only in consequence of what had fallen from his hon. Friend, but because he knew the Bill to be introduced was one that met with the approval of the late Mr. Butt, who had many opportunities of consulting, not only with the laity, but with the ecclesiastics of Ireland. The lines upon which the Bill was founded were perfectly neutral; and he should be surprised if the Bill did not receive,

The hon. Gentleman referred to the College upon St. Stephen's Green as being one of those which might be affiliated with the proposed University. Well, he asked, was there no difference between that College and one of the Queen's Colleges? The lectures given by Professors in St. Stephen's Green at the present moment were open to any student who chose to attend, irrespective of the religious belief of such student; yet, surely, no one would say that this did away with all difference between that institution and a Queen's College. He thought he had said sufficient for the present in answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Liskeard. With reference to what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it must be remembered that a private Member had no opportunity of bringing his Bill on as an Order of the Day except upon Wednesday. But all the Wednes

days up to the end of the Session were | he had, of course, not yet considered the occupied; and even if he could secure a details of the measure. He had listened Wednesday, the right hon. Gentleman with very great attention to the statemight consider it unreasonable to take ment of his hon. Friend in moving the the Bill on an early day. Supposing he introduction of the Bill, and he might said next Wednesday, would the right say that he considered it would commend right hon. Gentleman consent to it? itself to the people of Ireland. He did [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: not think the objection of the hon. MemYes.] If they were not able to secure ber for Liskeard was an important one, Wednesday for the second reading of and he was in favour of the Bill being the Bill, and were not able to bring it taken next Wednesday. on, say, within the next three or four Wednesdays, would the right hon Gentleman hold out any hope of the Govern- | ment giving up a day for its consideration? For if they were unable to secure any Wednesday within that time, there would be no chance of their getting the Bill through a second reading without the assistance of the Government. His hon, and gallant Friend the Member for Galway (Major Nolan), who had the first Order for next Wednesday, offered to place that at his disposal. If the Government would consent to the Bill being taken next Wednesday, he would bring it on on that day, and he hoped that it would be in the hands of hon. Members on Saturday morning.

MAJOR NOLAN remarked, that he was willing to allow his hon. Friend to take Wednesday for his Bill, on condition that the Government would come to the necessary agreement upon the subject. He would only give up next Wednesday, on condition that the Bill which was next in order would also make way for his.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the Government were in no way masters of the proceedings on Wednesdays, and it was not in their power to say whether or not the Bill would be taken that day. He did not, however, see any objection to the course which was suggested-namely, that the Bill should be put down for Wednesday, May 21st, with a view to getting it discussed then.

MR. COURTNEY thought that to take the Bill next Wednesday would be very rapid work. They were told that the Bill was unknown to the clergy and laity of Ireland, and yet they were asked to discuss it on that day, by which time it could not possibly have been considered by those most interested in it.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA said, that the whole proposition with regard to this Bill struck him favourably, although The O'Conor Don

MR. ERRINGTON stated that he was willing to give up his Bill, which was second in the Order Book, in favour of the hon. Member for Roscommon. That seemed to be the only day on which he would have any chance of bringing it on.

MR. PLUNKET was bound to agree with the hon. Member for Liskeard in thinking that it would be impossible to consider the Bill in all its bearings by Wednesday, particularly remembering the great number of persons interested in the subject. The hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) had stated that the Roman Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland had not yet had an opportunity of considering it. He would point out, therefore, to the hon. Member for Roscommon that if he insisted upon bringing on his Bill upon that day, no final Resolution could be arrived at with regard to it. It was necessary to consider the Bill very fully; and he would suggest to the hon. Member that he would make the Bill much more acceptable in the long run, and much more likely to conduce to the higher education of Ireland, if he did not fix the second reading at such an early day as Wednesday next.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT observed, that the hon. Member for Roscommon had said that he would be precluded from bringing his Bill on, except on Wednesday next, unless the Government gave him a day. As he understood his hon. Friend, he would have postponed bringing the Bill in on Wednesday if the Government would have given him a day at a later period. No doubt, Wednesday was an earlier day for the consideration of the question; but it must be taken then, unless the Government would give a day later on.

MR. SULLIVAN thought that it was undesirable that the Bill should be taken next Wednesday. It was an attempt at a compromise, and anything like a com