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that desire would be carried into effect. | Bill? He had a Motion with regard to Under these circumstances, he trusted the Military Expenditure in South Africa, that after the discussion which had taken which he intended to bring on in conplace the Committee would pass the nection with this Bill. Vote, and that then they should report Progress.

MR. WHITWELL inquired whether any resolution had been come to with regard to limiting the numbers of the Volunteers?

COLONEL STANLEY said, that, as regarded the increase of numbers, they did not at present intend to exceed the number which the Committee put as the maximum. If the Force continued to increase in the same ratio as it had done for the last five years, it would increase yearly, at a cost to the country at something like the expense of a battalion of Infantry. Whereas, in 1873-4, the Force cost £414,000, the expenditure on account of it now amounted to £512,000. He did not object to the increased expenditure; but, at the same time, he could not help saying that there was a point at which an expenditure of this kind ought to be very carefully considered. There was another point which he ought to mention. At the present time, an establishment of Volunteer corps contained a number of supernumeraries. It was a custom that where a certain number of these had been got together an application should be made for forming them into an extra company or battery. It was proposed in the future to deal with applications of that kind at a certain period of the year; in that way it was proposed to grant the applications in respect of the better corps, and to refuse them in the case of less good corps.

Question put, and agreed to.
House resumed.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE
BILL.-[BILL 150.]

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that if it was intended, on the third reading of this Bill, to raise a question on the Expenditure in South Africa, the third reading must be fixed at some future day; but when he could not at that moment say.

Bill, as amended, considered.

Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow, at Two of the clock.

INDIAN MARINE BILL.-[BILL 182.] (Mr. Edward Stanhope, Mr. John G. Talbot.) SECOND READING. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [19th May], "That

the Bill be now read a second time." Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

MR. ONSLOW objected to the Bill being read a second time, inasmuch as he had asked the Under Secretary of State for India whether a Committee could not be appointed to consider the expenditure upon the Indian Marine? The Marine expenditure was increasing very much in India, and money was not only spent upon it, but also upon the Royal Navy. He thought that the expenditure upon the Indian Marine and upon the Royal Navy performing duty in Indian waters should be considered before this Bill was passed. If his hon. Friend could give an assurance that there was not to be a double expenditure in respect to the Navy in India, and that an Indian Marine was required to do the same duties that the Royal Navy was now paid for performing, he should have no objection to the Bill passing. But, as the matter at present stood, this Bill seriously affected the finances of India.

MR. E. STANHOPE said, that this (Mr. Raikes, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Bill raised no question of finance at all.

Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.)

CONSIDERATION.

Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

MR. RYLANDS inquired when it was intended to take the third reading of the Colonel Stanley

The Bill was only for the purpose of enabling discipline to be enforced upon such part of the Indian Marine as it was found necessary to employ in addition to the Royal Navy. He would propose an Amendment to strike some words from the Preamble of the Bill, which he

(No. 2) BILL.-[BILL 188.] (Colonel Kingscote, Sir Joseph Bailey, Mr. Stafford Howard.)

thought would meet the objections which | SALMON FISHERY LAW AMENDMENT his hon. Friend had made. He should be very glad for inquiry to be made into this matter; and he thought it might be shown that not a single farthing of expense in India was incurred by this Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

INCLOSURE PROVISIONAL ORDER (MALTBY LANDS) BILL.─[BILL 31.]

(Sir Matthew Ridley, Mr. Assheton Cross.)

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read. MR. MUNDELLA asked his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to consent to the discharge of this Order. The right hon. Gentleman had agreed that if the matter were not passed before that time he would discharge the Order in respect of it; and he now trusted the right hon. Gentleman would do so. They had now arrived at a point at which the Bill should be left to the Standing Orders. A Select Committee had made a special Report with respect to this Bill, which made it impossible for it to pass that Session; and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would now consent to allow the Order for the second reading to be discharged.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS regretted extremely that, owing to a Notice being placed on the Paper, the Bill was then prevented from being proceeded with by reason of the operation of the 12 o'clock Rule. The parties in the matter had gone to a great deal of expense, and yet had not had an opportunity of bring ing their views before the House. If the Amendment had not been put upon the Paper they would have been enabled to state their case; and he had no doubt! that a decision would have been come to, either for or against their view. This was the last day, apparently, on which the Bill could be taken, so as to comply with the Standing Orders of the other House; but he knew of one case where a Bill not so far advanced was taken. In the absence of his Colleague, he did not think that he could permit the Order in this matter to be discharged.

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Colonel Kingscote.)

COLONEL KINGSCOTE said, that this was a very simple Bill, and was founded upon the Report of the Government Inspectors, made in 1877. It embodied the views of those officials in respect of doing away with a close time weekly, and extending it to an equivalent period in May and December. It only related to tidal waters-in fact, was local

fisheries in the Severn being only affected. He might state that most of the proprietors of the upper waters were in favour of it.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.

MOTION.

CONVICT "THEODORIDI."
MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.

MR. CALLAN moved,

"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copies of any Memorial presented by or on behalf of the Convict Theodoridi :'

"Of any Correspondence with respect to Theodoridi,' or Memorandum of any representations made on behalf of the Convict:

"And, of usual form, printed or lithographed, sent to the Judge who tried any convict on sented or representation made for his opinion." whose behalf any memorial may have been preIn making the Motion, he might say that it was as much for the convenience of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary as for his own that he moved

for these Returns.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased House, Copies of any Memorial presented by or to give directions that there be laid before this on behalf of the Convict Theodoridi :'

"Of any Correspondence with respect to Theodoridi,' or Memorandum of any representations made on behalf of the Convict:

"And, of usual form, printed or lithographed, sent to the Judge who tried any convict on whose behalf any memorial may have been presented or representation made for his opinion."

Second Reading deferred till Thursday.—(Mr. Callan.)

MR. ISAAC objected to the pro- | never have assented to his release. He
posal.
wished to make it clear to the lady's
friends, however, that he did not attach
any importance to those letters; but
only desired that anything in the custody
of the convict might be given up, in
order to prevent any annoyance at a
future period. Nothing was further
from his intention than to give any pain
to the lady or her friends, or to convey
the slighest imputation upon her.

MR. MONK asked, whether he under-
stood the right hon. Gentleman the
Home Secretary to state that he had no
Papers which he could lay upon the
Table of the House? There was a strong
feeling out-of-doors, originating with the
Press, against this man Theodoridi being
released, while his companion in crime,
who was, perhaps, less guilty than he
was, had been retained in prison. If
the Turkish Ambassador probably not
only called upon the right hon. Gentle-
man, but had communications with him,
he thought that they should be laid upon
the Table of the House; for, although
Theodoridi was a stranger to this coun-

MR. CALLAN said, that he could see
no objection to the information for which
he had asked being furnished, as it was
necessary for the House to know the
facts of the matter fully before it could
come to any decision on the subject.
It was his intention to bring the subject
before the House at no very distant date.
MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, that
he had already stated to the hon. Mem-
ber privately, as he would now state to
the House, that he had practically no
Memorials or Papers which he could lay
before the House. There had been no
Papers or Memorials of any sort or kind
which were suitable for laying before
the House. He had already stated all
the circumstances in connection with
this case.
As he had said, there was a
difference between the case of Theodo-
ridi and of the man who was convicted
with him; and the difference was this
-that in the case of Theodoridi the
prosecutrix recommended him to mercy.
In releasing this man, he did it only on
condition that he should leave the country, and of a different religion to the Eng-
try for good; and on condition that if
the annoyance of which he had been
guilty was repeatod, he should again be
brought before the Court-it was solely
upon condition of his leaving the coun-
try and ceasing the annoyance, that
Theodoridi was released at the request
of the Turkish Ambassador. He thought
that there had been some misapprehen- MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, that
sion with regard to this case, and that he had now stated to the House nothing
some of the lady's friends had thought but what he had said on previous oc-
that the fact of Theodoridi's being re- casions when questions were put to him
leased had something to do with her. with regard to this matter. There were
So far as the lady was concerned, how- no documents in relation to this convict
ever, there ought not to be the slighest which he should be justified in laying
idea entertained that the release of the before the House. The only Papers re-
convict had anything to do with her. lating to it were some letters which were
From some letters having been men- private. The distinction between the
tioned in an earlier part of the case, he case of Theodoridi and his fellow-convict
had some idea that they had better be was, that the lady who prosecuted in his
given up, or they might be produced at case recommended him to mercy. The
some future time. But on his demand-condition of his release was, as he had
ing them, as a condition of Theodoridi's
release, he was assured that there were
no such letters in existence. He had
thought it right to ask the Treasury
Solicitor whether there were any letters
in the custody of Theodoridi which it
might be desirable to get. The Treasury
Solicitor said he did not think that
Theodoridi had any letters; and unless
he had had that assurance he should

lish people, that was not sufficient rea-
son for his release. He should like to
have some further information upon this
matter-more particularly as to his right
hon. Friend's reason for refusing to
place upon the Table of the House such
Papers as he had received upon the
matter.

stated, that he should leave the country
and never come back again, and should
cease any annoyance; whereas no such
assurance had been given by the other
man.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

House adjourned at a quarter
after Two o'clock.

[INDEX.

INDEX

ΤΟ

HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

VOLUME CCXLVI.

FOURTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1879.

EXPLANATION OF THE ABBREVIATIONS.

In Bills, Read 1o, 2o, 3o, or 1a, 2a, 3a, Read the First, Second, or Third Time.-In Speeches,
1R., 2R., 3R., Speech delivered on the First, Second, or Third Reading.-Amendt., Amend-
ment. Res., Resolution.-Comm., Committee.-Re-Comm., Re-Committal.-Rep., Report.-
Consid., Consideration.-Adj., Adjournment or Adjourned.-cl., Clause.-add. el., Additional
Clause.-neg., Negatived.-M. Q., Main Question.-O. Q., Original Question.-O. M., Original
Motion.-P. Q., Previous Question.-R. P., Report Progress.-A., Ayes.-N., Noes.-M., Ma-
jority.-1st. Div., 2nd. Div., First or Second Division.-., Lords.-c., Commons.

When in this Index a is added to the Reading of a Bill, it indicates that no Debate took
place upon that stage of the measure.

When in the Text or in the Index a Speech is marked thus, it indicates that the Speech
is reprinted from a Pamphlet or some authorized Report.

When in the Index a † is prefixed to a Name or an Office (the Member having accepted or
vacated office during the Session) and to Subjects of Debate thereunder, it indicates that the
Speeches on those Subjects were delivered in the speaker's private or official character, as the
case may be.

-

-

Some subjects of debate have been classified under the following "General Headings:'
ARMY NAVY-INDIA-IRELAND - SCOTLAND - PARLIAMENT - POOR LAW-POST OFFICE-
METROPOLIS- CHURCH OF ENGLAND EDUCATION CRIMINAL LAW-LAW AND JUSTICE-
TAXATION, under WAYS AND MEANS.

-

-

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Execution of Prisoners of War, Questions, Mr.
O'Donnell; Answers, Mr. E. Stanhope
May 9, 18

The Peace Negotiations, Observation, Viscount
Cranbrook May 19, 655;-Bases of Peace,
Observation, The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer May 19, 698; Observation, Viscount
Cranbrook May 26, 1204 ;-Signature of a
Treaty of Peace, Observations, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer May 26, 1266
General Roberts' Despatch-Capture of the
Peiwar Kotal, Questions, General Shute;
Answers, Mr. E. Stanhope May 12, 122;
May 26, 1233

Afghanistan and Zululand-Number of Bri-
tish Troops Engaged, Question, Mr. Waddy ;
Answer, Colonel Stanley May 19, 699

Africa-South Africa

LORDS-

Natal and the Transvaal

Appointment of Sir Garnet Wolseley as High
Commissioner, Statement, The Earl of Bea-
consfield; Question, The Earl of Kimber-
ley; Answer, The Earl of Beaconsfield
May 26, 1204: Questions, Observations,
The Earl of Carnarvon : Reply, Earl Cado-
gan; Question, The Earl of Kimberley;
Answer, Earl Cadogan May 27, 1329

The Zulu War

The Latest Telegrams, Observation, Earl
Cadogan May 12, 100
Re-inforcements, Question, Lord Truro; An-
swer, Viscount Bury May 15, 381;-Condi-
tion of the Regiments, Observations, Lord
Truro, Viscount Hardinge; Reply, Viscount
Bury; short debate thereon May 19, 666

Africa-South Africa

COMMONS-

Papers and Despatches

The Latest Telegram, Observation, Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach May 12, 133

Negotiations with the Boers- Sir Bartle Frere's
Despatch, Question, Mr. W. E. Forster;
Answer, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach May 19,
698

Lord Chelmsford's Despatches, Question, Sir
Alexander Gordon; Answer, Colonel Stanley
May 23, 1139

Further Papers, Questions, The Marquess of
Hartington, Mr. Chamberlain; Answers,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer May 26,
1240

Sir Bartle Frere's Despatches, Question, Mr.
Courtney; Answer, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach
May 27, 1364; Observations, Mr. Sullivan ;
Debate thereon May 27, 1364; Question,
Mr. Courtney; Answer, Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach June 16, 1919

[cont.

Africa-South Africa-COMMONS-cont.
Re-inforcements

Drafts from Regiments, Question, Mr. Otway;
Answer, Colonel Stanley May 22, 1018
The Royal Marines, Questions, Mr. Otway,
Mr. Rylands, Sir Charles W. Dilke; An-
swers, Mr. W. H. Smith, Colonel Stanley
May 22, 1018

Re-inforcements from India, Question, Mr.
Rylands; Answer, Colonel Stanley May 23,

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The Zulu War

The Fight at Rorke's Drift, Question, Mr.
Stacpoole; Answer, Colonel Stanley June 16,
1916;-Surgeon Major Reynolds, Question,
Mr. Errington; Answer, Colonel Loyd
Lindsay May 12, 123

Expenses of Military Operations-Estimates of
Expenditure, Question, Mr. Childers; An-
swer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
May 15, 399; Question, Mr. Whitwell;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
May 15, 401; Question, Sir George Camp-
bell; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer May 26, 1237; Questions, Mr. Childers,
Sir George Campbell; Answer, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer June 12, 1695
Transport Service in Natal, Questions, Mr. W.
H. James; Answers, Colonel Stanley May 20,
838

The Forces in Zululand, Questions, Mr.
Waddy; Answer, Colonel Stanley May 22,
1008

Alleged Cruelties of the British Troops, Ques.
tions, Mr. O'Donnell; Answers, Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach May 22, 1015; June 12, 1708
The Civil and Military Commands, Statement,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Ques-
tion, Mr. W. E. Forster May 26, 1227;
Explanation, Sir Robert Peel May 26, 1241
Returns of Killed, &c., Question, Sir Wilfrid
Lawson; Answer, Colonel Stanley May 27,
1352

Instructions of Sir Garnet Wolseley, Question,
Mr. Sullivan; Answer, The Chancellor of
the Exchequer May 27, 1357; Questions,
Mr. Parnell; Answers, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer June 10, 1562; June 12, 1721
The War, Question, Mr. O'Donnell; Answer,
Sir Michael Hicks-Beach May 27, 1363

Overtures of Peace, Question, Mr. Sullivan ;
Answer, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach May 26,
1235; Question, Sir Wilfrid Lawson; An-
swer, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach June 13,
1810-Detention of Messengers, Question,
Sir Wilfrid Lawson; Answer, Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach June 9, 1432

MISCELLANEOUS QUESTIONS

Railways, Question, Colonel Beaumont; AG-
swer, Colonel Loyd Lindsay May 12, 131
Indenture of Natives in Natal, Question, Mr.
O'Donnell; Answer, Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach May 22, 1016

[cont.

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