conceived was in a position such as he (Mr. O'Connor Power) was bound to admit he had not succeeded in establishing. It turned out that the complaint should have been brought against the men who failed to bring the Zulu wounded into hospital. That was, so far, very well; but the hon. Member for Meath went further, and asked the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to send instructions to the South African contingent of the Army Medical Department in reference to the treatment of Zulu prisoners. He thought that if the hon. Member for Meath had not gone quite so far as that, and if he had simply called upon the Secretary of State for War to make inquiries, he would have been standing upon more solid ground, and that the Secretary of State for War could not have refused so just and reasonable a demand. At the same time, he quite agreed that it would be unreasonable, on the mere strength of newspaper reports, to write out special instructions reflecting upon the character of the Army Medical Department; but, on the other hand, he thought that the Secretary of State for War might have said that the discussion upon the general Business of the House, and upon the manner in which it was transacted by the Government, had as little to do with the subject before the Committee as the atrocities alleged to have been committed in the Zulu War. However, they had it upon the authority of the Chairman that those observations were in Order, and he therefore presumed that anyone would be equally in Order in resenting the imputations put forward. The Business before the Committee was the examination of the Estimates; and he would inform the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot), that he charged him with attempting by tall talk to intimidate hon. Members in the discharge of their duty; and, moreover, wished to remind him that on every preceding occasion, when any such attempt had been made, it had always ended in failure. Hon. Members were invited to come from Ireland and Scotland to discuss certain Estimates, and when they rose, in the discharge of their duties, to discuss them, it was said that the Business of the country was being stopped, and they were called upon to be silent. He maintained that if they had no right to criticize the Estimates according to their own discretion, they had no right to be in the House at all. When an Irish Member was sent to the House of Commons, he was not told by his constituents to shape his course according to the views of the hon. and gallant Mem-assurance from the Secretary of State ber for West Sussex. He (Mr. O'Connor Power) was as free as the hon. and gallant Baronet, and refused to have any line of conduct chalked out for his observance. If the House had more work to do than it could perform, the only remedy was to divide the work, and allow each class of Representatives to do their share; but as Irish Members had been invited to sit in the House of Commons, it was not open to the House to complain of the consequence of its own act. Now, with reference to the matter which gave rise to these observations; the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) had found that he was called upon, as a Member of the Committee, to consent to the very large Vote of £200,000 for the Army Medical Department, and he ventured to call attention to a branch of that Department which he Mr. O'Connor Power "These matters which have been brought forward by hon. Members have attracted so much attention, and are of sufficient public interest, that I will inquire into them, and if I find the facts to be as they are represented, I will endeavour to prevent them in future." But the Committee had received no such for War, who had simply pooh-poohed the allegations, and the possibility of the acts to which they referred having been committed. He (Mr. O'Connor Power) had no objection whatever to a Division when the time arrived; but if hon. Members opposite insisted upon stating their view of the case, they must not complain that the other side should get a hearing. It had been said more than once that evening that no member of the Army Medical Department, and he believed an hon. and gallant Gentleman from behind the Treasury Bench had stated that no English regiment, would have been guilty of the cruelty complained of; but was it supposed that nothing was known of the progress of the English arms in India? He (Mr. O'Connor Power) maintained that there was no act of cruelty which had not been com mitted by British soldiers and officers | should reprehend in the strongest manin building up the Indian Empire. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER rose to Order. THE CHAIRMAN said, that the discussion of this question had arisen from the allegation made by the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell), who was dissatisfied with the conduct of the Government, and put that forward as the ground on which he moved his Amendment. The discussion had, in consequence, turned rather on the conduct of the Government than on the Vote now before the Committee. He must point out that the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power), in reflecting upon the conduct of the Army, in different parts of the world, was clearly out of Order. ner the slightest imputation upon the skill or humanity of the Medical Staff. As the most efficacious way of terminating this discussion, he appealed to his hon. Friend the Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) to withdraw his Amendment, and allow the Vote to pass. MR. BIGGAR had not understood that any imputation was cast upon the Medical Staff. The imputation was that the Commander-in-Chief, who had the Medical Staff under his control, had mismanaged in the grossest manner the Forces of England at the Cape. was not until he was charged by several hon. Members with making imputations against the Army Medical Department that he became warm. Although he had not intended that the discussion should travel so far as it had done, he believed it would do great good. As regarded the conduct of affairs in South Africa, he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. MR. PARNELL had no wish to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division, especially as the discussion which had taken place would, in his opinion, have a beneficial effect. He felt that the MR. O'CONNOR POWER would question was an awkward and disagreeregret to occupy the time of the Com-able one for the Committee to listen to. It mittee after it had been ruled that any particular line of argument was out of Order. He would not do that; but he might be allowed to say, in his own defence, that he had endeavoured to confine himself within the allegations made on this side of the House. He had said that the whole point of the discussion was that the attention of Her Majesty's Government had been called to certain alleged atrocities, in the conduct of the war in South Africa, in respect of the treatment of the wounded MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he had received of the Zulu Army. Now, he asked the letter a day or two ago from one of Secretary of State for War not to send our soldiers in Durban, who complained out instructions in consequence of the very much of the scarcity of medical reports referred to, for that would be luxuries in the hospitals. Such matters asking him to do more than the circumas milk, butter, &c., were spoken of as stances of the case demanded; but, inas-having to be paid for out of the pay of much as the character of the Army Medical Department was at stake, to give an assurance that inquiry should be made into the truth of the reports in question. If the hon. Member for Meath went to a Division, he (Mr. O'Connor Power) should probably vote with him, meaning thereby to express that these reports were worthy of inquiry, and not intending to convey that they were worthy of special instructions being sent out. MR. SULLIVAN said, no doubt, a great deal of warmth and misunderstanding had prevailed in the course of the discussion, nor could he complain of hon. Members resenting what they believed to be an imputation upon the humanity of the British soldier. He a the soldiers. Having promised to bring the matter under the notice of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, he took that opportunity of doing so. He was sure that the want of the smallest possible comforts referred to was due to some mistake, and ventured to express a hope that if there had been any shortcomings in that respect they should be remedied. Original Question put, and agreed to. (4.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £495,200, be for the Pay and Allowances of a Force of Militia, granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge not exceeding 132,526, including 30,000 Militia, Reserve, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880." COLONEL NAGHTEN hoped that the Government would give some assurance that curtailing the training of the Militia was not to be carried further, nor to be adopted as a precedent. Everyone acquainted with that Force was aware that three weeks' training was very little, especially in the case of Artillery, to make any proficiency, in which branch four weeks was but a short time. With regard to the Vote for clothing in the Militia, he wished to know what had become of the head-dresses of the Militia, which, for some reason or other, had been taken away, the men now appearing in forage caps only? He saw no credit allowed for the old busbies, which, however, he supposed were not worth much; but why had they been taken away? Was it to give them to the Volunteers? It would appear that, in taking away the head-dress of the Militia, it was intended to reduce their appearance in the eyes of the other Forces, which was a very great mistake. He must say that the numbers of the men had this year been very much increased where the Militia had been properly treated and quartered in barracks. He trusted that the Committee about to be formed would give considerable attention to the subject of recruiting from the Militia. He could not help thinking that if the recruits of the Army had passed three or four years in the Militia, and had some of their time of service counted towards their pensions, a much finer class of men would come forward for the Regular Service. It was to be hoped that some old Militia colonels would be appointed to the Committee on Army re-organization, on which, he thought, all branches of the Service ought to be represented; and it would be a benefit to the Army at large if Militia colonels were allowed to send to the Regular Service a proportion of their unmarried men up to a certain standard in height and chest measure of all ranks stood at 137,556; whereas the number of those present at the training of 1878 was by the last Return only 86,458, leaving a deficiency of about 51,000 of all ranks. That number did not, however, express the real deficiency in fighting strength; since, besides Militia Reserve men, large deductions must be made, owing to the number who would be on the sick list from the youth of the men, whenever the Militia were called on for service in the field. There were also 14,189 privates absent without leave, from the last training. He would now call attention to the deficiencies existing in particular regiments, as shown by a Return which he held in his hand relating to the training of all Militia regiments in the United Kingdom during last year. In Lancashire, where he was sorry to inform his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War the state of matters was at its worst, there were five regiments returned as having an establishment of 6,000 men in rank and file. Of these, however, only 2,824 appeared at inspection. Two Devonshire regiments showed only 561 out of an establishment of 1,600 rank and file; an Aberdeen regiment-for he was sorry to say Scotland was no better than England in this respect-370 out of 800; the Cornwall Rangers, 331 out of 800; and the East Essex, 390 out of 800. It was, in short, the constant practice for not one-half the nominal numbers of a Militia regiment to appear on parade. The Volunteers were in a different position, for unless two-thirds of a regiment appeared the ordinary inspection could not take place. He was quite aware that the Establishment of the Militia was based on a war footing; but the deficiencies were so serious that he trusted his right hon. and gallant Friend would call upon Militia colonels to spare no exertion in filling up the attenuated ranks of their regiments. If the Militia was to continue to be the so-called Constitutional Force of the country, it was of the utmost importance that steps should be taken to make it numerically efficient. There SIR ARTHUR HAYTER called the was only one more point to which he attention of the Committee to the very wished to call attention. He rather serious deficiency still existing in the doubted whether it was wise on the numerical strength of the Militia, and part of the right hon. and gallant Gencould not allow this Vote to pass subtleman the Secretary of State for War silentio. The Committee would see, at to reduce the training period of the page 5, that the Militia Establishment Militia this year from 27 days to 20, in ment. order to save some £40,000. At all 19 and 20 formed a very large proportion of the total number. Then, of those over 35 years of age there were 8,261. Altogether, therefore, out of a total nominal strength of 136,000 men of all ranks, there were at least 30,081 who, in Germany, would not be considered efficient for military service. Now, that was a ghastly state of things. If the Militia was the backbone of our military system, and he owned that it ought to be so, he could not understand how the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War could sit down for an hour and allow such a state of things to continue. Whatever he might do, it was to be hoped that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would not carry out the 104th paragraph of the Report of his own Committee of 1876, and reduce the Establishment of the Militia to 75,000 men, on the ground that it could not be kept higher. Such a proceeding would be worse than that of the man who, wishing to lengthen a blanket, cut a piece off one end and sewed it on to the other; for the proposal of this Committee was to lengthen the blanket by cutting a piece off it altogether. For the sake of the dignity and strength of this country, he implored the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not to lose a moment in remedying the terrible shortcomings of our Militia system, as shown in the official Returns. LORD ELCHO said, that the Vote for the Militia was by far the most important the Committee had to consider, and with regard to it, he was sorry to say that the state of things was even more serious than his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Arthur Hayter) had represented. They were always told that the Militia was the backbone, the very soul and essence of our military system. Well, what was the state of this backbone? Why, it was invertebrate; and he would give figures to prove this-figures which he hoped would receive the attention of the country, for it was only with the help of public opinion that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would be able to frame and carry out the necessary measures of improvement. The Militia Establishment was fixed at 136,000 men; but, at present, it only stood at 86,000, so that it was 50,000 short. Deducting from this 86,000 the Militia Reserve, which amounted to 30,000, there remained only a Force of 56,000 of all ranks. Deducting, again, the permanent Staff 4,000, the officers 2,100, and the noncommissioned officers 1,000, there remained only 47,238, which constituted the entire effective Militia Force of the country. His hon. and gallant Friend had shown the weakness of particular regiments. A more convincing proof of their shortcomings might be obtained in a different way. The total number of Militia regiments in England, Ireland, and Scotland, was 158. Now, dividing 47,238 by 158, they would find the result to be 298, which was, therefore, the average strength of our Militia regiments. But the evils of which he complained did not end there. The ages of the men were by no means satisfactory. He found that the "men under 17 years of age numbered 1,970; and those between 17 and 19, 19,851. The num-this-that the Returns of some regiber of those between 19 and 20 was not given, the next list including all between 19 and 25; but, no doubt, those between COLONEL STANLEY confessed that, at first sight, the figures of the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) somewhat appalled him. On a closer examination, however, he found that the noble Lord was mistaken in some important particulars. In pointing out the discrepancy between the strength of the different regiments and the number of men who appeared at inspection, he made no allowance for the men who were at that time actually serving with the Colours. This circumstance accounted at once for 34,000 or 35,000 men. Then, again, the noble Lord in making his comparisons, included the permanent Staff on the one hand, and deducted it on the other, and asked the War Office to account for the difference. Another source of error was ments did not include recruits, who, in certain regiments, within his own knowledge, numbered 200 or 300. The dis It crepancies to which the noble Lord had | year, altogether, was an exceptional one, called attention were, therefore, more and the experiment was not likely to be apparent than real. At the same time, repeated. He could assure hon. Memhe (Colonel Stanley) was prepared to bers who had spoken that the state of admit that the state of regiments in the the Militia was occupying very closely neighbourhood of large towns was not the attention of the Government. altogether satisfactory. In London, was difficult to keep up some regiments Glasgow, and other great centres, there to their strength amidst the fluctuations was a large floating population, and it of the labour market and other disturbwas impossible to retain a hold upon the ing influences; but instructions had been men under such circumstances as easily sent to the General Officers commandas it could be done in rural districts. ing districts to be most careful in selectThe estimated strength of regiments ing men. He hoped that this precauwould, he was afraid, always be more or tion would have a satisfactory result, less affected from this cause; but it was and that much of the desertion which satisfactory to know that on an emer- took place between the enrolment and gency there was very seldom any diffi- the training of the men would be done culty in getting men, and that when- away with. ever there was a scarcity of civil employment the ranks filled up. The noble Lord had somewhat mis-stated the effect of the paragraph of the Report of the Committee of 1876 to which he had referred. The recommendation had only reference to a technical distinction be tween the Militia proper and the Militia Reserve who, being liable to be withdrawn, did not form an integral portion of the Militia regiments. What was recommended was a change of form, rather than a change of substance. With regard to the head-dress of the Militia, referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Bath (Sir Arthur Hayter), he believed the change to the forage cap had, on the whole, been recognized as advantageous to the Service, and satisfactory to the men themselves. The old shako was really very little worn, and a great deal of time was lost in fitting the men with it. Moreover, it was not so serviceable as the forage cap. With regard to the period of training, no one could regret more than himself the curtailment of it which it had been deemed advisable to make. But the necessity for reducing the Votes having arisen, the present year seemed to be unusually favourable for making an experiment of the kind; at all events, it seemed to be an occasion on which the period of training might be reduced without so much deteriment to the Service as might, under ordinary circumstances, be expected. No fewer than 25,000 of the men had had not one month's but four months' training with regiments of the Line, and there were also a large number of recruits who had also had the advantage, in most cases, of two or three months' training. The Colonel Stanley SIR HENRY HAVELOCK, while fully recognizing that the strength of the Militia was not what it ought to be, pointed out to the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) that he had fallen into a singular misapprehension on the subject. The Return, which professed to give the total number of men who were in training in 1878, stated that 15,000 were absent without leave and 14.000 absent with leave; but it appeared that the latter number included the Militia Reserve men who came out for mobilization. It was, in the highest degree, creditable to the Reserve men that so large a number of them should have responded to the call to mobilize last year. It had been anticipated that at least 15 per cent would be absent; but it turned out that the absentees scarcely amounted to 2! per cent, although many of the men were obliged to leave their families in very necessitous circumstances. The training period for the Militia extended from February to September. Different regiments were called out at different times; and it happened that many of the men of the Militia Reserve, who had served with the Colours last year up to July 3, were absent from the Militia regiments which were trained in July, August, and September. Thus, a considerable portion of the discrepancy which the noble Lord had pointed out was satisfactorily accounted for. Notwithstanding the tendency which had been shown to depreciate the Militia, and the unfavourable criticisms which had been passed upon them, even by Volunteer officers, he (Sir Henry Havelock felt bound to say that they really formed |