thing to do with that; but these Esti- those gentlemen was sometimes at the mates had been prepared, as they had rate of two guineas, and sometimes one been told, before the war in South | guinea a-day. That, he thought, was a Africa broke out, and the increased sufficient explanation of the increase in amount could not be accounted for on the Vote. He thought that as the matter that ground. The other question to had now been under discussion for a long which he should like to receive an time, it would be felt that every inforanswer was as to invalided medical mation that could be given had been men. Army surgeons were now in- afforded, and that the Vote should now valided from foreign service and sent be passed. If any further information home; but they ought not to be taken were required, he should be happy to out of the Service when they had re- furnish it. cruited their health. At the present time, when a medical man was invalided and sent home he was not employed in this country when his health was restored; but a civilian was employed in his place. That was a double injury, for it deprived the officer in the Medical Service of half his pay, and it injured the public in having to pay for the civilians, who were brought in unnecessarily. There was no reason why a medical man who had been invalided from abroad, and had recruited his health in this country, should not be capable of discharging his duties at home, even if he were not capable of again undertaking foreign service. Why should the country be put to the expense of employing civilian medical officers when the medical officers of the Army were perfectly able and willing to discharge the duties? As no explanation had been offered upon these two points, he should feel himself justified in dividing upon the Motion. He could see no justification for saddling the country with the double burden of paying the civilian medical officer as well as the half-pay Army surgeon. COLONEL LOYD LINDSAY hoped that the hon. and learned Member for Kildare would not think it necessary to divide the Committee upon this Motion. The Committee had been occupied a considerable time in the discussion of the Vote, and ample explanations had been given concerning it. One point to which attention had been directed was the increase in the item for the employment of civilian medical officers. thought that it would be seen that the increase was, in some respect, due to the fact that civilian medical men had been sent out to the Cape, and were receiving very large remuneration-a civilian at the Cape would expect to receive much more than an officer of the Medical Department of the Army, and the allowance to Mr. Meldon He MR. PARNELL remarked, that the explanations offered did not seem to touch the point. Attention had been drawn to the fact that from £500, two years ago, the charge for the employment of civilian medical officers had now risen to £13,805. That large sum was spent in obtaining medical practitioners to undertake the duties which the Medical Staff of the Army were not sufficiently numerous to perform. He did not see, however, why so many civilians should be sent out to the Cape, for it prevented the medical officers of the Army from going there. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had alleged that the need of extra medical assistance was caused by the outbreak of the war in Zululand. But the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, in making that explanation, contradicted himself; for he told the House, on a previous occasion, that the Estimates were prepared before the war at the Cape broke out, and, therefore, without taking into account what was required for that war. Therefore, this very large sum of £13,805 was not rendered necessary by the warlike operations now being con ducted in South Africa. He could not understand what seemed to him to be a very great contradiction between those two statements of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. He should like to know how the Secretary of State for War reconciled the two statements he had made? COLONEL STANLEY said, that it was quite true that the Estimates were prepared before the war in South Africa broke out. But when the war took place, it was necessary, from time to time, that a number of surgeons should be sent out with the columns in the field. For that purpose civilians were employed, and their pay was at a higher rate than that of the officers of the regular establishment. It should be borne in mind, however, that the gentlemen so employed would only be entitled to be paid during | They were paid to recover their health, the time they were actually engaged, and would receive no pension. MR. MELDON thought that he was entitled to some little explanation of the burden of his speech, which had been passed over without remark. He had stated, that if it was a matter of discretion with his right hon. and gallant Friend to conceal the contents of the Warrant which he proposed issuing, he would not press the matter; if, in the exercise of his discretion, he had told the Committee that he felt bound to withhold the information, then he (Mr. Meldon) should not feel himself compelled to go to a division upon the matter. In respect of medical officers invalided from foreign service, it was not for an increase of their leave that he applied-although he was bound to say that he was very grateful for the concession in that direction-but it was with respect to the employment of civilians in their place when they were competent for the duty. A civilian was employed to discharge the duties of an officer of the Medical Service and was paid in full, while the Army medical officer was kept on half-pay. He thought that the medical officer belonging to the Service should be employed in some Department so soon as he was certified to be fit for it. This point had not been noticed by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, and he hoped they would have some explanation with regard to it. COLONEL STANLEY stated, that he had explained twice what was the intention of the Government. On the first occasion the hon. and learned Gentleman was not present, and he thought the explanation was accepted as satisfactory by the Committee. He re peated the explanation when the hon. and learned Gentleman resumed his place, though not at great length, for there were limits to the patience even of the Committee. With regard to the point that he had pressed upon him, he would repeat what he had previously said, that he was not aware of having received any communication from the hon. and learned Gentleman with respect to the matter; but, if he would allow him, he would refer to his correspondence and ascertain the fact. It was not correct to state, as the hon. and learned Member for Kildare did, that half-pay officers were paid for doing nothing. and they were paid in order that they might recruit themselves for performing their duties to their country. It was not always found possible to employ a man at home directly he was invalided from India. They had, in the first instance, to look at the duties to be performed; and, in the second, to the persons to perform those duties. MR. MELDON remarked, that after what had taken place, he did not think it would be of any use troubling the Committee to divide, and he should, therefore, be willing to withdraw his Amendment. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question again proposed. MR. PARNELL considered the answer of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to the questions that had been put to him not at all satisfactory. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had stated, in reply to his question, that he was not able to say positively that the wounded Zulus had been treated in the military hospitals. He knew that this was an unpleasant subject, because it involved the suggestion that our troops in South Africa had not been carrying on the war in a civilized manner. But he thought it better to go into this matter then, in order to prevent any further mischief being done. Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War take some notice of this matter as regarded the authorities in South Africa? Would he write out to the authorities there, telling them that attention had been directed to the apparent absence of any hospitality, or other form of humanity, towards the wounded Zulus, as was usual? Or, would he further say that it had been thought a remarkable fact that none of the enemy's wounded had been taken into our hospitals? The newspaper correspondents had not mentioned that any wounded had been taken into the military hospitals. If anything of that sort had happened, there was no doubt that the fact would have been mentioned-that wounded Zulus had been brought in and received hospital treatment. But there had been a significant absence of any tidings of that character; and, on the contrary, reports of another sort had MR. A. F. EGERTON rose to Order. He ventured to think that the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), in contesting the opinion of the Chair, was himself entirely out of Order. THE CHAIRMAN said, that it was open to any Member of the Committee to urge a point of Order. The hon. and learned Member did not seem to him to have intended to exceed his right in been spread. That morning there was a letter published in one of the Dublin newspapers of a very remarkable character, which professed to come from an officer serving in South Africa. The letter was addressed to a medical student, by whom it was sent to the newspaper. After describing the action at Ginghilovo, and the defeat of the Zulus, the writer went on to say that when the Zulus were in retreat the Native Auxi-speaking to Order; but he had endealiaries attacked them, and played the devil with them. All the wounded were assegaied by them, and after the battle no less than 487 dead Zulus were buried. THE CHAIRMAN felt himself bound to point out to the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) that the matter to which he was now alluding could not be said to have any reference to the point before the Committee. What the hon. Gentleman was alluding to could not reasonably be connected with what might be called attention to the prisoners falling into the hands of the British Forces. He must point out to the hon. Member that he was entirely departing from the subject of the Medical Service of the Army, and was dealing with the conduct of the British troops in the field with regard to the wounded of the enemy-a matter which had nothing to do with the Army Medical Service. MR. SULLIVAN observed that, of course, the Chairman's decision would be acquiesced in by his hon. Friends, although it seemed to him (Mr. Sullivan) that that decision might be contested. He believed, however, that it had never been, and never would be, questioned. He would wish to point out that they were then discussing the Vote for the Medical Service of the Army. If the Medical Service of the Army were not efficiently rendered, it was open to hon. Members to move to reduce the Vote. Those services were not efficiently rendered, if the medical officers in attendance upon the troops in South Africa did not care for the wounded Zulus who might fall into their hands. With all respect to those gentlemen he must say, that if they did not care for the wounded Zulus that fell into the hands of the British, they would not be doing their duty; and if the medical officers did not do their duty, it was open to the Committee to challenge the Vote. Mr. Parnell voured, so far as he could, and to the best of his ability, to lay down what he believed to be the rule of the Committee upon the subject. He presumed that if the hon. and learned Member for Louth seriously wished to contest the ruling of the Chair, he would take the course which was open to him of making a Motion to report Progress, in order that the Committee might be fortified by the opinion of the House. He understood the hon. and learned Member to be addressing his observations to the Chair, in order to change the view which he had held it right to express upon the subject. Therefore, he did not think it incumbent upon him, so far, to stop him in the remarks he was making. If the hon. and learned Member seriously intended to dispute the ruling of the Chair, it was open to him to move to report Progress, in order that the matter might be brought before the House. MR. SULLIVAN thanked the Chairman for his decision upon the point which was now raised. He did not understand him that he ruled his hon. Friend was out of Order. He believed he was correct in saying that he had not ruled that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) was out of Order, but that he was going somewhat wide of the mark, which was a very different thing. THE CHAIRMAN said, that he had endeavoured to explain to the Committee his opinion that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) was out of Order; he was still of that opinion. MR. PARNELL inquired whether the Chairman had ruled that he was out of Order in directing attention to the necessity of treating the wounded Zulus who might be taken in action in South Africa in the same way as their own soldiers were treated? As he understood the ruling, it was that he was out of Order in reading extracts from a letter which bore, in his opinion, not upon the question of the treatment of the wounded Zulus, but upon the conduct of the troops | cal officers of the Army, because they in slaughtering wounded Zulus whom they might find upon the field. THE CHAIRMAN said, that the rule he endeavoured to lay down was that so long as the hon. Member was discussing the medical treatment of the wounded, he was not exceeding the subject under discussion; but when he entered upon the subject of the conduct of the troops to the wounded in the field, he was out of Order. had never been afforded a chance of attending to the enemies wounded; and he was sure if they had been, they would have done their duty. He believed that they would treat a wounded Zulu in every way as if he were one of their own comrades. COLONEL STANLEY said, that the conduct of the British troops in the field had been impugned, and it was necessary to consider upon what evidence. So far as he could see, no evidence was adduced except that of some private letters. He was bound to point out that it was by no means certain that a wounded Zulu would be a proper inmate of our military hospitals; and there might be very grave reasons against admitting wounded Zulus to them. It was also worthy of remark that the Zulus, like all savage races, were, so far as they knew, in the MR. SULLIVAN asked, what single syllable had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) which exceeded the limits laid down by the Chairman? He did not think that his hon. Friend had uttered a single word, except with regard to the medical officers accompanying the troops, and their duties towards the prisoners who were taken. How, therefore, could his hon. Friend be out of Order in the ob-habit of carrying off their wounded from servations he had made? He must complain of the attempt which had been made from the Treasury Bench to overawe the Chair, and to urge the Chair-parently been found. In no official Reman further in his ruling than was fair, and further than he intended to go. He thought that the Committee was bound to resist any attempt on the part of the Treasury Bench to intimidate and mislead the Chair into unnecessarily ruling hon. Members on that side of the House out of Order. MR. A. F. EGERTON observed, that the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) had entirely misunderstood his observations. He simply said that the hon. and learned Member was contesting the ruling of the Chair. As to intimidating or overawing the Chair, that was not his intention; his only object was to support the Chairman in his ruling. COLONEL NORTH said, the officers of our Army in the field had treated all the prisoners that fell into their hands as they ought to do. It was a most unfair thing to make charges against the medical officers of the Army of having acted inhumanly towards the enemy, when those gentlemen were not there to defend themselves. If hon. Members knew of any particular offences which had been committed, let them say it; but it was not right to slander a body of men by making sweeping accusations against them, as had been done. MR. SULLIVAN said, that no imputation had been made upon the medi the field, if they could possibly do so. Owing to that reason, he presumed it was that so few wounded Zulus had ap port had it been found necessary, owing to their small number, to take cognizance of the wounded Zulus found upon the field of battle. If the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) could produce to him any authenticated cases with regard to the slaughter of, or inhumanity towards, wounded Zulus, he would inquire into it. But he thought it required an authenticated case, before any reliance could be placed upon the reports which had been spread in this matter. MR. PARNELL thought that the request which he had made was a very reasonable one, and he had hoped that it would have been responded to more fully than it had been. He asked the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to give notice of the fact, in some way or other, that attention had been directed in that House to no prisoners seeming to have been treated in or out of the hospitals in the field. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman directed attention to that matter, the authorities in South Africa, if they had not done it already, would then take proper care of the wounded. He did not wish to bring charges against officers of the Army Medical Service; on the contrary, he knew a great many Army medical officers, and believed then to be a very good set of men. At the same time, from accounts in news papers, and from information which had come to his knowledge in other ways, an opinion had grown up that wounded Zulus had been inhumanly treated in this war. It was, however, impossible for hon. Members to get authenticated instances of any such cases. They could not, from the necessity of the case, obtain any precise information; but judging from the evidence in the newspapers, and from the fact that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had admitted that the Zulus were objectionable prisoners of war and objectionable inmates of hospitals, they could only think that the ordinary customs of war had not been followed in their case. All they asked the right hon. and gallant Gentleto do, under the circumstances of the case, was to mention the matter in his communications, so that no mistake might be made in the future. SIR ANDREW LUSK thought it very unfair to bring charges of improper treatment of the wounded against officers of the Medical Staff when none of them were present to defend themselves. The hon. and learned Member for Louth had stated that he heard this and he heard that about what went on in South Africa. The hon. and learned Gentleman, who was himself a lawyer, would know that if he came before a Court of Justice, and talked as he was talking there that night, no one would listen to him for one moment. The charges which he was bringing against the medical officers were mere hearsay, and based upon correspondence in newspapers and allegations that someone had told him; and he asked the hon. and learned Gentleman whether he would be listened to for one instant in a legal tribunal; and, if not, could he expect to be listened to any more in the Committee? DR. LUSH was very sorry that this question had arisen in connection with this particular Vote; for it seemed to him that the discussion had wandered very much away from the Medical Service of the Army. Allegations had been made that the officers in the Army Medical Service had been, personally, and in their individual capacity, guilty of cruelty. It seemed to him that these charges had been brought against those gentlemen simply for the purpose of bringing before the Committee the alleged conduct of the troops in South Africa. If that were so, it was a very ungenerous Mr. Parnell thing to a body of men who, so far as he knew, had always done their duty. MR. MACDONALD said, that there was one fact patent, and that one fact was that there was a concurrent testimony, be it right or be it wrong, appearing in a paper here and a paper there. It was said to be a letter from an officer, or from a soldier, or from other parties. They had no evidence that it was false, as they had no evidence that it was true, other than these repeated statements. Besides those printed and circulated, he was aware there were many-very many-others, he had seen not a few himself; but he did think there was a concurrent testimony cropping up all over the country; and, although he thought the statements might be false, or might be very reckless, yet, to satisfy the public mind, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War ought to give an assurance to the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) that there would be sent out instructions, of a character that could not be misunderstood, that if any wounded Zulus were spared, they should have the treatment that others had. The allegation was that they were not spared. To use the language of a letter he had seen They murder all they meet, wounded or not, so that they should never attend the war dance again." If that allegation was not correct, still the order would not be an improper one, and it would give the Commander-inChief, and all concerned, an opportunity of vindicating their character from aspersions that were not true. 66 COLONEL NORTH hoped the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would not insult the Medical Officers by sending out any instructions of the sort. Perhaps the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Macdonald) might believe the reports. He (Colonel North) believed that if the people throughout England, Ireland, and Scotland were to be polled, no one would be found to say that he believed a British soldier would act in such a way towards a wounded enemy. MR. MACDONALD: I believe it. MR. LOWTHIAN BELL said, that if there was any ground in the complaints respecting the treatment of Zulu prisoners, these should be inquired into at a proper time; but upon what earthly ground the existence of these reports had been set forth to interrupt the pro |