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MR. DODSON said, he was very glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman attached so much importance to the office of the Visiting Committee. It must be remembered that the position of these gentlemen was very much changed. Formerly, the Visiting Committee was, practically, the governing body of the prison, and they were persons of weight and authority. Now they had no authority over the prison officials whatever, and the officials knew it. Further, the officials had the ear of the Prison Commissioners, and, through them, of the Home Secretary, while the Visiting Committee knew they had not the same ready means of access to the right hon. Gentleman. Not unnaturally, therefore, the Visiting Justices felt that instead of being persons with authority they were now looked upon as prying busy-bodies, and in any conflict between them and the officials or the Commissioners they would probably go to the wall. It all depended upon the light in which the Home Secretary regarded the Visiting Justices. If they found their reports readily listened to, their suggestions carried out, themselves treated as representatives of the public, and the Home Secretary ready to avail himself of their services as a check upon the prison officials, then, he had no doubt, gentlemen would be found willing and ready, as heretofore, to discharge the duty of Visiting Justices. Unless, however, the greatest care was taken by the Home Secretary to make the position of the Visiting Justices one, if not of direct authority, at any rate, one of indirect weight and importance, he would find a difficulty in discovering gentlemen to take the post.

he could not conceive a more honourable | dealt with all the points raised by his duty than that which they would per- right hon. Friend. form, of stepping in between the prison officials and the prisoners, on the part of the public, to see that no injustice was done. As regarded the question of contracts, if his hon. Friend could show any point in which the Government were wrong it should be rectified; but it must be remembered that all articles could be bought much cheaper on a large scale than on a small one. At the same time, he might add, that in this respect, as in all others, the hints of the Visitors had been considered most care. fully. In regard to clothing, he hoped before another year that they would be able to make every single article they would require in the prisons for themselves. As to gratuities, that was the only means the Commissioners had at their disposal of inducing prisoners to behave well; but he quite agreed that the money earned should be given in such a way that when the prisoner came out he could not go off at once and spend it in drink. He was quite aware that they had not yet got a perfect plan; but, after going over the whole matter very carefully, the Treasury consented to give a Supplementary Vote, in order that he might assist, as far as he could, the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society. The Government would give them a certain sum, but would have nothing to do with the distribution of the money. That would be left entirely to the Society, aided, he hoped, by the Visiting Committee. The officials of the prisons would be entirely at their service in making reports on particular prisoners, &c.; and all that the Government required would be that, at least, an equal sum to that granted by it should be raised by local subscriptions, and that the Society should be able, if called. upon, to show that the money had been properly expended. As to the appointment of warders, he offered not to give the Visiting Committee the appointment of these men, but to allow them to nominate men for the prison service, not, of course, for particular and individual prisons. It must be remembered that the prison service was now a whole, and the result of that was to give a warder much greater chances of promotion than if he were stationed in one prison, and had there to wait his turn for promotion. He thought he had now

MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, that there was one great safeguard given to the Visiting Justices. They had the absolute power, if they thought it necessary, or if they were not treated properly, of suspending the Governor of the gaol, which was a very great power to give any body of persons. He might add, that he had received a great many communications and representations from various gentlemen on Visiting Committees, and they had invariably ended by tendering him their warmest thanks for the way in which their suggestions had been received and considered.

That was what he hoped and wished | tean system of management there was always to be the case.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER was very glad that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert) had brought forward this question about contracts, because the question was very closely allied to a subject which occupied the attention of the Committee at an earlier period of the evening. The contracts for the supply of food were most important branches of the prison arrangements, for some of the complaints against the present system were founded on the allegation that collusion existed between those who supplied the food to the prison and those who had to distribute it. So far from Nolan's case having been exaggerated, his experience of prisons led him to believe that it was not an exceptional case by any means. He well remembered when it was once his duty to visit an English prison how the Governor attempted to capture him, in a metaphorical sense, at the outset. He was marched to the kitchen-there the Governor pointed to some dishes, and stated that each of them contained a prisoner's food for the day. To that he replied that the dishes threw no light on the subject he had come to investigate. He knew what the supply of food should be; the question with him was whether the prisoner got it. "Oh!" replied the Governor, "here is the chief warder, whose business it is to see that each prisoner gets his proper amount of food." He suggested, in reply to that, that the best test of the system was a rigid inspection of the cells without any notice, and he suggested that he should be allowed to go at once into the cells where the prisoners were eating. The suggestion took the Governor rather by surprise; but he could not help himself, and a visit was paid to the cells. In the first one visited it was evident that the man had a much smaller supply of food than he had seen in the kitchen. On asking the reason, the chief warder replied that that particular prisoner belonged to a light-labour party. If a man complained of being sick, in fact, he was put on a light-labour party, and his food was reduced. What was the chance of the man getting better under such circumstances? The lessened work was set against the lessened food, and the man was left with the same chance of getting well as before. Against this Procrus

Mr. Assheton Cross

no remedy, except independent inspection. He was, therefore, very glad to hear the assurance just given by the Home Secretary to the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert) with reference to the Visiting Justices. He was not by any means satisfied with the way in which the Visiting Justices did their work under the old system; but they were, at all events, the only independent body of Inspectors and Overseers cognizant of what was going on. He should, therefore, be very sorry that their powers should be weakened or destroyed. The Home Secretary had read a rule which he had ordered to be circulated, which there could be no doubt was a very good rule. But, in connection therewith, he wished to mention the case of certain men whose previous life affected neither their physical nor their moral conditionhe meant the Irish political prisoners, who were admitted by the Judges who tried them to be men of high moral character. These men, after being in prison, found themselves, after a few months or years, entirely broken down in their constitution. They had a right to punish a man within certain limits; but they had no right whatever to substract in the slightest degree from the fee simple of his constitution. The State had no right to rob any man of the fee simple of his constitution; it was a great mistake to say that their prison system was now perfect. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had said that he had issued instructions calculated in every way to protect the health of the prisoners; but still there was a feeling that all was not as it should be. They objected to the right hon. Gentleman allowing himself to be influenced by those who were interested in the conduct of the prisons. It must strike everyone as being odd that, in the case of Nolan, all the officials came forward and said that although there was not a case against anyone, yet they must acknowledge that something very wrong had been done. This was a very important subject-it was a question of detail of the whole treatment of these prisoners, and he thought that they ought to be satisfied with the discussion that they had had that night and resume the consideration of the Vote the next day, or after the Whitsuntide Recess. He must protest against passing that Vote

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SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON really hoped that the hon. Member was not in earnest in making his Motion. They had now had what everyone must admit to be a most unprecedented discussion, lasting nearly six hours, on a single Vote of the Civil Service Estimates. Although he quite admitted the importance of the Vote, and the extreme importance of the subject that had been brought under consideration, he did hope that the Committee, having considered the matter at length, would now pass the Vote. He appealed to the hon. Member to be satisfied with the ampleness of the discussion, and to withdraw

his Motion.

plementary Estimates came on, he should, therefore, recommend his hon. Friend the Member for Mayo to withdraw his Motion.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER said, that, under the circumstances, he would beg

leave to withdraw his Motion. He would, however, first ask the Chairman of Ways and Means, whether they would be in Order in raising the point suggested upon the Supplemental Estimates?

THE CHAIRMAN said, that, not having the Supplemental Estimates before him, he could not inform the hon. Member what questions could be raised upon them.

Motion by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or "That a further sum, not exceeding £1,101,400, towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880,

viz. :-
:--

CIVIL SERVICES.

INGS.

MR. RYLANDS observed, that this Vote had been very carefully and fully discussed, and he thought that next year they would be able to discuss the subject still more fully and carefully. He CLASS I.-PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDthought, also, that the exhaustive discussion that they had had would supply some very valuable hints to the Home Secretary in dealing with these questions; and, under the circumstances, he trusted that the hon. Member for Mayo would allow the Vote to pass, on the understanding that Progress would be immediately reported afterwards.

MR. PARNELL remarked, that he had studied the case of Nolan very carefully, and but for having lost his voice would like to make some further observations with regard to it. Did he understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that there would be a Supplemental Estimate introduced for the Prisons that Session?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, that it would be necessary to introduce a Supplemental Estimate for some purposes. As they had to provide compensation to some local gaols, it would be necessary to force the matter on in order to provide the requisite funds.

MR. PARNELL said, that in that case, as there would be an opportunity for raising further discussion on a very important point-namely, the repeated infliction of the punishment of solitary confinement by gaolers, when the Sup

Ireland :-

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CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF
PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.
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Chief Secretary's Office, &c.

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Local Government Board ::
Public Works Office

Record Office

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Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the 17,000 Chair."—(Mr. O'Connor Power.) 22,000

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CLASS VI.-SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES, AND GRATUITIES FOR CHARITABLE AND OTHER PUR

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SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON thought that the course he had taken 600 had been assented to by hon. Members 1,200 generally. It was arranged that they should be allowed to take a Vote on Account, in order to meet certain demands which it was absolutely necessary to satisfy before they separated for the Holidays. He pointed out that their only opportunity to get this Vote on Account was that evening, although he admitted that it was an unusual course to take a Vote on Account on the same 2,600 night as the Civil Service Estimates. Had he not taken the Vote that evening, he should have had to prolong the Sitting till Thursday-thus shortening the Holiday. With that difficulty before him, he ventured on that occasion to take

£

75,000 2,500

20,000 3,000

the unusual course of asking for a Vote | PUBLIC HEALTH ACT (1875) AMENDon Account of the Civil Service that day MENT BILL-[BILL 33.]

before they separated. He had agreed (Mr. Alexander Brown, Mr. Whitwell, Mr.

to leave out of the Vote an Item which was objected to by several hon. Members below the Gangway oppositenamely, the University Vote for Scotland. That had been struck out of the sum demanded, and was not, therefore, included in the Vote just put from the Chair.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER begged leave to withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.
House resumed.

Ryder.)

COMMITTEE. [Progress 7th April.]
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Powers of local authority for supply of water).

MR. A. H. BROWN moved, in page 3, at end to add

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Nothing in this section shall empower a local authority to obtain or supply water within the limits of a Water Company or of any local authority or person empowered by Act of Parliament, or any Provisional Order confirmed by

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, Parliament to supply water, without the consent at Two of the clock;

Committee to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

EAST INDIA [LOAN]. Resolution [May 23] reported. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL said, that the House was very much taken by surprise in having this matter brought on at that period, as no notice whatever of the proposal to take it had been given. The Bill was not in the Paper that morning-no one knew what it meant. He had not the slightest idea that the House was to be committed to a loan of these £2,000,000, which he understood it was the proposal of this Bill to lend to India.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the loan which they had heard mentioned was a loan of £2,000,000 by this country to India. He understood that it was the desire of the House to have the discussion upon this Bill taken in connection with the general question of Indian finance. There would be an opportunity at a later stage of the Bill of making any explanation with regard to it, and he hoped that the House would now consent to take the Report of the Committee upon it.

Resolution agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. RAIKES, Mr. EDWARD STANHOPE, and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 197.]

of such Water Company or local authority or person."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

MR. A. H. BROWN moved, in page 5, after Clause 4, to insert the following Clauses :

(Supply of water by Water Company under guarantee of local authority.)

"Where the district or any portion of the district of a local authority is situate within the limits of supply of any Water Company empowered by Act of Parliament or any Order confirmed by Parliament to supply water, and water therein on the terms prescribed by section the Company are under an obligation to supply thirty-five of The Waterworks Clauses Act, 1847, and it appears to the local authority that the district or portion as the case may be ought to be supplied with water, and the Company as obtained from the owners or occupiers of houses to any part of that district or portion have not in that part, an agreement to the effect specified in that section, the following provisions shall have effect:

:

"1. The local authority may, if they think fit, undertake in respect of that part to make good to the Company for successive years the amount, if any, by which the annual water rents from time to time received by the Company from that part fall short of a sum equal to ten per centum per annum on the cost of providing and laying down such pipes, and constructing such service reservoir, if any, as may be necessary for bringing water to and supplying that part; "2. The Company shall, within three months after the giving of such undertaking, provide and lay down such pipes and construct such reservoir, if any, and provide in manner required by The Waterworks Clauses Act, 1847,' such a supply of pure and wholesome water as may be necessary for the domestic use of all the inhabitants of that part;

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