important question under the considera- | this House a formidable list of Committion of Parliament, and with the pro- tees that had been even then held for the spect of further inquiry. Unless, how- organization and re-organization of the ever, any future Committee that might War Office Departments. If the Secrebe appointed was composed of entirely tary of State finds it necessary to appoint different material from any Committee another, we must try to hope that now within his (Lord Ellenborough's) recol- he will have crowned the edifice-allection, further inquiry would be utterly though I confess that my confidence is useless. His experience was that they a little shaken upon this point, when I generally came to their labours with notice that this Militia Committee, at the strong preconceived opinions. It was a end of a Report of 107 paragraphs, state misfortune that the opinions of officers that "many questions are still unwho had served for a great length of time touched." And I must dispute the statewith their Colours had not nearly as much ment made by the noble Lord on the weight as those who had seen little ser- cross-Benches (Lord Ellenborough), that vice, and were enjoying the advantages these Committees are improperly constiof easy Staff appointments. He trusted, tuted. I have assisted at such inquiries, therefore, that the Committee would be and I can assure him that those appointed composed, not of officers holding those entered upon the consideration of the appointments, but of officers who had matters referred to them in a very difcommanded regiments for prolonged ferent spirit from that which he has periods, and were, consequently, well attributed to There have been acquainted with the requirements of two discussions upon military subjects the Service in all its departments, in- during the present Session, neither cluding the medical system, which had of them regular in point of form, as deteriorated in efficiency as regarded the there was no precise Motion before well-being of the Army at large, from the House. On both occasions the the ill-conceived notion of the abolition speakers departed from the Notice on of the regimental system, unsatisfactory the Paper, and plunged into things in to commanding officers, and to the medi- general, perhaps unavoidably. Howcal officers themselves. Upon the whole, ever, I gathered from competent speakers however, he did not think further in- that the present system of enlistment quiry was necessary, since the Govern- does not provide trained soldiers; that it ment were in possession of ample infor- does not provide qualified non-commation, derived from the expressed missioned officers; and, early in the opinions of officers who had commanded Session, the noble Viscount who repreBritish regiments of Her Majesty's sents the War Office here (Viscount Bury) Service. stated that it was contemplated to reTHE EARL OF LONGFORD: My engage men from the Reserve, which Lords, without accepting literally the looked like a reversal of the short-service terms of the Resolutions proposed by system. He was quite right; as it is the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway), plainly necessary by some means to give and without adopting all the opinions stability to the battalions, whose bones that he has expressed, I concur with have been picked clean to furnish drafts him generally that much in our existing to regiments going abroad. We should military organization is unsatisfactory. have expected that the necessities of the Two points, amongst others, have been case having been recognized, a short referred to depôt centres, and the Act would have been passed to give to appointment of a new Committee. As the War Office the necessary powers. It to the first, I would remind your is an obvious blot on the original scheme, Lordships that a very principal de- that whereas provision is made for callpôt centre has been waiting its turning out the Reserves at a period of great for a very long time-I mean a new War Office, not a temple for the fame of the architect, but a convenient Office where the several departments may be consolidated, and the business of the Army properly conducted. As to another Committee, or Commission, I had occasion, 11 or 12 years ago, to mention in

VOL. CCXLVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

national emergency-which is not likely to occur very often-no provision is made for utilizing them in minor emergencies, which may occur frequently. However, although we might have expected that some prompt action would have been taken, we find that the course resolved upon has been to introduce a clause into

2 R

until breech-loaders were introduced. But improvement may go too fast. At Lord Panmure's Recruiting Commission in 1866, when the period of enlistment had been reduced to 10 and 12 years, renewable to 21 years, most of the witnesses were asked if they had heard any one speak well of this system. None of them had anything to say in its favour, except theoretically. Encouraged by which, the next Government reduced the term still further, and landed us in our present difficulty. I cannot help think

a hurry in jumping at short service. In our anxiety to create a Reserve, we have too much weakened our first line. And to reduce the system of long service with pension we have introduced something like short service with pension; and the Under Secretary of State for War further states that we must be so tender with our Reserves that they must not be worrited by anything to remind them that they are soldiers, except, of course, their Reserve pay. There is no occasion to go back to bows and arrows, or flint locks; but we may consider whether we may not have made a mistake in recent changes. All the mutual admiration that may be exchanged across the Table does not alter the fact that regiments have been sent abroad hastily completed with untrained men, and that if re-inforcements are required, they must be of the same character. The matter requires all the attention that the Government, with the assistance of both sides of the House, can give to it.

a many-headed Bill that is dragging through a weary discussion, and it is doubtful when it may become law. Further, the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State recently, in an excellent official speech, showed that his Department thoroughly understands how "not to do it"-there were perfect explanations why the soldiers were young, and the sergeants inexperienced, and the legislative provisions defective; but he made only languid reference to intended remedies for recognized defects, although this particular weak spot in the system-ing that we have been in rather too great the locking up of the Reserves-was noticed three years ago, and was the subject of much inquiry before this very Militia Committee, of which Colonel Stanley himself was Chairman. I do not follow the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) through the interesting details of his speech; but I prefer to give an example of the working of the existing system as it bears upon a particular regiment, the Returns of which I have been able to see. It is a two battalion regiment-one abroad, one at home; from the battalion at home, in the last six months, 352 soldiers have gone, and have been nearly replaced by recruits, some partially drilled at a depôt, some the raw article. And this is supposed to be an efficient battalion, one of the first on the roster for foreign service, or to take its place in the first line of any Army Corps that might be formed. With 141 recruits at drill, and 15 lads, its efficiency must be seriously reduced. And I may give an example of what bystanders think of the present state of things. Two general officers were present on a recent occasion in this House, and heard the views of three noble Viscounts and of other speakers: one of them near the Throne observed to me-"They may say what they please, the whole thing is rotten; the other at the Bar afterwards said to me-"Why did not you insist on speaking, and tell them that the system is rotten?" Now, I do not say that the whole thing is rotten, because we have that good material to work upon-loyal officers and the right stuff for soldiers; but the right stuff wants keeping. There is no reason why we should be afraid of progress. I remember the change, adopted with some misgiving, from flint locks to percussion arms, and subsequent improvements,

The Earl of Longford

VISCOUNT BURY said, he did not intend at that time to go into the details of the general military system which had just been attacked by the noble and gallant Earl (the Earl of Longford), who had, as usual, spoken very plainly to the House upon the subject. It was somewhat curious that his noble Friend who introduced the subject (the Earl of Galloway) devoted most of his speech, not to an attack on the Government, but to an attack on the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cardwell), whom he (Viscount Bury) would leave to defend himself and his policy. But he had two things to do-he had to show that the Government were not unmindful of the present condition of affairs, but were adopting the course they believed most conducive to putting matters right; and he had to show that the position was one for which

they were not altogether responsible. | so to return to the Colours. There was The noble Earl who brought forward already a measure on the Table of the the Motion talked as if the Committee other House containing a clause which now to be appointed by the Government dealt with this question. To introduce was to follow on the same lines and deal an Act of Parliament for the purpose of with the same materials as the two pre- bringing back Reserve men to their vious Committees. The Committee of Colours was a thing which was much 1872, however, was appointed by the easier said than done, and one which noble Viscount opposite, and it resulted would not result in any saving of time; in the establishment of the brigade depôt because experience showed that there system, in the details of which there were difficulties in getting a measure were, no doubt, grave defects. The Com- through the other House quickly, and no mittee of 1876 dealt not, as had been doubt, as the subject involved grave Consupposed, with short service, but with stitutional questions, such a Bill would the detailed working of the brigade most certainly be considered by a great depôt system, and the way in which it number of Members in the other House, affected the Militia. Now, the Com- and would be warmly debated, and at mittee which the Government proposed great length. He held, therefore, that to appoint was a purely military Com- such a Bill as the noble Earl had promittee, which would deal with existing posed would not facilitate matters. The defects. He had only to refer their question should be left in the position Lordships to the speech delivered by the which it now occupied. The Bill which noble Earl that evening, to show how contained the clause referring to it had unfitted such an Assembly as theirs been read a second time, and was at would be to deal with the numerous de- present being debated in a Committee of tails which had been brought before the House of Commons. The Governthem. It was acknowledged on all ment could not be justly blamed for dehands that there were defects in the lay, for they could not force a measure way in which our recruits were sent through a free House of Commons or forward, and the way in which our through their Lordships' House. Any cadres were filled. The question was, measure that might be introduced would therefore, essentially a military one, and have to be considered for a reasonable it was a question which ought to be ad- time; and the Government had therefore vised upon by military men. He under- refrained from bringing forward such a stood his noble Friend (the Earl of Gal- Bill as was proposed by the noble and loway) to say that some decision should gallant Earl. A military Committee be immediately arrived at. But he would alone constituted the proper machinery ask how was the Secretary of State to by means of which the Government could come to a right decision unless he ap- inform themselves on the details of the pealed to the military men who sur- question before their Lordships; and, as rounded him upon this purely military he had shown, the course which the Goquestion? The Committee which would vernment had pursued, of leaving the be appointed would consist of military question to the ordinary channels of the men of the highest standing in the coun- other House for decision, was, on the try-as his right hon. and gallant Friend whole, the one most likely to save time. the Secretary of State would take every means to assemble around him those whose opinions would carry most weight -and they would investigate, as only military men could investigate, the details of the brigade depôt system. was for that reason that he did not propose to go into the details into which his noble Friend who moved the Resolutions did, and with which it was impossible for the House to deal. The noble and gallant Earl who had spoken last (the Earl of Longford) said that a short Bill should be introduced to enable the short service men who wished to do

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH said, he entirely concurred in the views of the noble Earl who had opened the debate (the Earl of Galloway), and in many points he could, from his own experience, It corroborate the noble Earl. He could not speak of the depôt system generally; but he was strongly adverse to the system pursued in the depôt to which the regiment with which he was recently connected had the misfortune to be attached. The locality in which this depôt was placed was very much exposed to the north and north-east. The subsoil of the locality was wet, while the

Cardwell) took a view about depôt centres which differed from that which he supported in 1872. The explanation was this-the early opinions were rudimentary opinions, expressed in the course of discussions in the other House. When, however, he came to reduce those views into a practical form, he consulted the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge), and a Memorandum was prepared advising how those views were to be carried into effect. A Committee was afterwards appointed for the pur

surface of the ground was composed of clay. There was no place in the neighbourhood fit for drilling in, or for the movements of battalions. He did not know whether the officer commanding the 62nd depôt was a Staff officer or a regimental officer, as he was seldom seen there, and lived many miles away from it. It was, in fact, often very difficult to know who was commanding officer at the depôt. Sometimes it was the senior captain, who had not given himself leave of absence; but at other times it was the quarter-master sergeant, or the orderly-pose of suggesting the mode in which room clerk. He was glad to hear that the Government contemplated the immediate appointment of a Committee to go into the whole system of the subdistrict, depôt, and long and short service systems. Under these circumstances, he did not think that further discussion would lead to any practical result; and, therefore, he suggested that the Motion of the noble Earl should be withdrawn. VISCOUNT CARDWELL said, he must be allowed to express his surprise at the remarks of the noble Duke who had just spoken (the Duke of Buccleuch). He (Viscount Cardwell) would remind the noble Duke that he was himself one of the most important Members of the Committee which sat in 1876 to inquire into the system that now existed, and that the concluding words of the Report of that Committee were highly commendatory. Those words were to this effect

"The Committee trust that the conclusions which they have the honour to submit may result in the full development of the system of organization which, upon the recommendation of the highest military authorities, has been so recently adopted and approved by Parliament and by the country."

He was, therefore, very much astonished to hear the noble Duke express the opinions which their Lordships had heard. The opinions of the noble Duke had undergone a most remarkable change since 1876. He did not think it was at all necessary to follow the noble Earl who had first addressed their Lordships upon the subject before them (the Earl of Galloway) into the details he had brought forward in support of the Motion; and inasmuch as the noble Earl had made copious quotations from his (Viscount Cardwell's) speeches, he should take care to trouble their Lordships very little now. The noble Earl had pointed out that in his earlier career he (Viscount

The Duke of Buccleuch

the work was to be done; and the views to which he referred were repeatedly considered and finally adopted, the expense necessary before they could be put into practice being unanimously sanctioned by the House of Commons, and not questioned by their Lordships' House. The greater part of the speech of his noble Friend had been devoted to faults which were found with the manner in which the system he had introduced had been carried out.

But for these faults, he could hardly be held responsible, as he had ceased in 1874 to have any power or control over that system, though he might concur in some of the steps taken by the War Department under the present Government. He did not deny that there might be some faults or defects which it might be necessary to remedy; and although he should not himself think it necessary to propose the appointment of any Committee, he thought it a proper course; and if it were the intention of Her Majesty's Government, in spite of the Report of the Secretary of State, to institute further inquiry, he should be delighted to see it enter upon its labours, and trusted that it might be attended with public advantage.

LORD TRURO asked, whether a list of the names of the proposed Committee, which had appeared in some of the military papers, was correct?

VISCOUNT BURY said, he had not seen the list referred to. As soon as the Committee had been selected, the names would be published.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK observed, that, as a Member of the Committee to which reference had been made, he had signed the Report, because he believed the system inaugurated by the noble Viscount (Viscount Cardwell) could be best carried out in the manner sug