misery of it is that we are ruined by silver already.

down quietly and acquiescing in it. It that of England. Almost any sacrifice, may be that the thing may be in some considering the enormity of the sum lost, degree alleviated. But it is not as if it should be undergone in order to obtain were a slight loss. The ground to be that. It will be said that there is nomade up is so great that I cannot help thing easier, and that we have only to thinking it is an excess of presumption declare that we will have a gold curand sanguineness to expect any change rency. Purchase your gold, make it the as likely to take place which will put standard, and reduce the silver to a mere India in a situation tolerable to any token coinage, as in England. But country, a situation where she can fairly where are we to get the money to purpay her debts without being subjected chase the gold? What possibility is to this enormous sacrifice. It is infinitely there in a poor country like India, where worse for India than for any other we are doubting, even at the present country, because she is placed in a situa- time, whether she does not stand on the tion in which no country was ever placed verge of bankruptcy, how is it possible before-that her very existence, under to undertake anything of that sort? her present Constitution and form of [Mr. JOHN BRIGHT: Buy it with the Government, depends entirely upon that silver.] The right hon. Gentleman says which is procured for her by the pay-"Buy it with the silver;" but the very ment of these sums of money. Therefore, I do think that a case is made out, if a case ever was made out, for seeking some remedy. What, then, shall we propose? The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down proposed a double standard. I deny, Sir, that there ever is such a thing as a double standard. You may have an alternative standard, but never a double one. Gold or silver, you may have them together; but one or the other is sure to gain the advantage. You do not really get a double standard; you get either, with the additional evil of uncertainty. Something or other makes an alteration, and suddenly deranges all your calculations by shifting you from one to the other. Therefore, I cannot regard that as any approach to a settlement. What happens? That when there is a shift people pay their debts in that coin which is the cheapest. How, then, a double standard can be any relief where you have a nation whose currency answers their purpose tolerably well in their own country, and utterly fails to answer it abroad, I cannot at all understand. The question is whether we cannot hit upon some other means. What appears to be wanted for India is a standard identical with that of the country with which it is so intimately bound up. As India is paying something like £20,000,000 a-year to us, it seems most extremely desirable that the money should be paid in the way in which it will go furthest. Therefore, I confess that it seems to me that the great object we should have in view, if it be possible to attain it, is that we should get a standard of value identical with Mr. Lowe

However desirable it might be from the way in which Indian finance has been regulated, we must see that this is perfectly impossible. Are we, then, to give up the question in despair and do nothing else? Is there any other remedy? The hon. Gentleman who spoke last suggested a paper currency; but he put that on one side, because he said such a currency would not be relied upon-that there were no means of limiting it within the bounds admissible. But is that true? Is there no means of limiting a paper currency? What is the nature of it? What gives a currency its value? It is not because it is made of any particular material. The value of a currency depends on something altogether different. It depends upon two things. First, that it should be made legal tender, which is easily enough done; and then that some means should be adopted by which it shall be limited, so as not to exceed the sum that would be used if gold, for instance, had been employed. If you can do these two things, you have got a currency possessing all the qualities, so far as I know, of a thoroughly good gold currency, with the advantage that you have not to find the gold for doing it. That was the plan developed so many years ago by Mr. Ricardo. So far as I know, it has never been carried into effect; but it has never been refuted, and I have never seen, in the course of my reading, any serious objection urged against it. There is not the least doubt that a currency of that kind, of notes of legal

tender sufficiently limited, will perform, and overwhelming objections to this all the duties of a gold currency, with scheme. Perhaps a person who, howthe advantage that you save the wear ever unworthily, has held the Office of and tear of the gold. I remember, at a Chancellor of the Exchequer is not even period when I had the means of com- prudent in broaching such a scheme. manding much better information on the But I am so strongly impressed by the subject than I have now, making some state in which India is, simply throwing sort of calculation as to what would be away for her currency arrangements the effect here if, instead of a gold, we £3,000,000 yearly, that I think any sughad a note currency, one pound notes gestion of any kind, which has any plaufor sovereigns, guarding that currency sibility, any semblance of practibility, that by Mr. Ricardo's proposition that if a I felt it my duty to offer this suggestion. person brought notes to the Bank he It may be shown that I have overlooked should always receive gold for them some principle or some condition which to their exact amount. Assisted by makes my idea valueless; but still I those who were much better qualified offer it, because I do not believe we can than I was to deal with this subject, I go on long in this way, draining these calculated that England would save millions from India, where money comes something like £50,000,000 if she like blood from the poverty of the adopted the note currency. But Eng- people, and where we are put to our utlish prejudices would not hear of that most shifts to make both ends meet, that for a moment. As far as I know, we may not die by that most ignothe people may be quite right. The minious of deaths by which a great currency satisfies them extremely well, Empire can perish-bankruptcy. I they are used to it, they can afford the have, at any rate, taken my life in my luxury of it, just as they can afford the hand in offering this suggestion. I luxury of putting on any number of would not have done it if I had thought millions to our Debt; and, therefore, we could go on as we are; but I do not sound as I believe the principle to be, I see why any country should pay this do not for a moment wish to tamper sum merely for the pleasure of keeping with the present institution in England. on a very bad currency. But what possible objection can there be to trying such a thing in India, in the terrible state in which she is now, not as a mere matter of experiment, but in order really to save her from the bankruptcy with which she is imminently threatened? It would be perfectly easy, I think, to introduce notes into India, and to make the regulations that Mr. Ricardo suggested, that a person should receive gold for any notes he might bring in. We know, if there were any redundancy in the currency, that the process would go on until the redundancy ceased. But it would go no further, and then we should be possessed of a currency not so showy, not so expensive, but for all practical purposes quite as useful and as good as the currency in England or as the silver currency of India. I do not enter into the technical question how it is to be brought into working. The system can be reduced by experts to such a state that you would have a token currency of silver just as we have in England, and a legal tender up to a certain amount just as silver is here. There may be, and probably there are, very serious reasons

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: In consequence of the withdrawal of the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), my hon. Friend (Mr. E. Stanhope) is prevented from addressing the House again. As, however, there are some observations which it is necessary to notice, I venture to detain the House for a few moments before we go to a Division. The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has dealt with the great loss which the fall in the price of silver has placed, during the past few years, on the Revenue of India, and he calculates that that fall has imposed a loss of something like £3,400,000 annually on the Revenue of India. But my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State explained that these figures only represented the loss by exchange, and did not mean that that sum is money in gold annually lost. He simply stated that that was the loss, applying to these figures exactly the same test as is applied to every other figure of the accounts-upon the number of rupees annually remitted to this country in order to make certain payments in gold in this country. There[Second Night.]

2 Q2

pees. But the sale of those bills mainly, as I believe, reduced the price of silver as quoted in the London market by 11 per cent! That very forcibly illustrates the extreme difficulty in which the Secretary of State for India was placed in getting rid, upon advantageous terms, of his drafts upon India. The proposition of the right hon. Gentleman is that we should issue notes in India to represent gold. The first criticism I make upon that is that no notes would have any value, unless they represent something; and although you may say they represent gold, unless the Government have the gold nobody will believe them. The second great objection I have to make is that if you once attempt to make silver a token currency, you involve yourselves in interminable difficulties with the occupiers of land. Then, what are you to do with the enormous amount of rupees in circulation in India, where, at present, there is no token currency, and the purchasing power of the rupee is exactly corresponding to the intrinsic value of the silver contained in it? Another objection is, that if you in

fore, the loss is not in gold; but it should be put in this way that the Indian Government, in consequence of losses by exchange, have now to remit something like £3,400,000, or three crores 40 lacs, upon all the gold payments in this country, the difference between the nominal price of the rupee as taken in the accounts namely, two shillings, and its actual market price in this country. But still, making all allowances for that difference, the loss is so serious that if anyone could suggest any practical means by which this loss could be reduced the Government would gladly adopt it. But in all propositions involving a change in the currency, we have to consider two separate questions. First, we have to consider whether or not any alteration in the standard will be suited to the wants and conditions of the people of India; and, secondly, we have to take care that any remedy or alteration proposed will mitigate, and not aggravate, the present condition of things. It seems to me, and I speak with all diffidence on this subject, that the great object we should have in view is to raise, if possible, the price of silver in Lon-crease the currency of India by the printdon, and not in India. I believe that the purchasing power of the rupee in India has not greatly fallen, and that was, indeed, one of the first propositions of the right hon. Gentleman. It seems to me self-evident that so long as there is a great demand in India for silver, and a small demand for it in England, so long must the purchasing power of silver in India be greater than it is in England. Possibly, some proposition might be made by which the value of silver might be raised in England. Undoubtedly, the sale of the Secretary of State's bills in London has a most depressing effect upon the silver market. How depressing that is I can well illustrate by some figures which I laid before the House some two or three years ago. In the year 1876, there was a very sudden fall in the price of silver. I believe that experts differ as to the actual amount of silver in circulation throughout the world; but I believe the lowest estimate puts the amount at £600,000,000 sterling. It is a curious illustration that I am about to give of the connection between cause and effect. Between January and July of that year, the Secretary of State for India suc ceeded in selling £2,700,000 of ru

Lord George Hamilton

ing press, by circulating notes, you must diminish the demand in India for silver; and as you diminish the demand for silver in India, so do you reduce the price of silver in London. Therefore, if we adopt the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, it seems to me that it might have exactly the reverse effect of what we propose, and so far from increasing the price of silver in London, which is the main object of every remedy, it might do just the contrary. The silver market is undoubtedly in a state of excessive sensitiveness, and its extreme fluctuations have undoubtedly been aggravated by the Bills which the Secretary of State has been forced to sell. I think no one who has looked into the Home charges can believe that any great reduction can be effected. If you apply the most drastic scheme of economy, it could not, for many years, seriously effect the Home charges of the Indian Government, because nearly all of them are connected with services which have been rendered, with money which has been borrowed, with materials which have been forwarded for the benefit of India. Therefore, it is impossible materially to reduce the sums payable in gold in this country unless the Indian

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those who trade to the countries where | above the ordinary Expenditure of India, silver is the standard of value; but for which the Indian Government have what is absolutely ruinous to the trade had during the past seven years to find are these constant fluctuations up and Ways and Means, taking the rupee at the down, because they render unstable ordinary rate of 2s., amounts to the enorthe standard of value, which is the mous sum of upwards of £57,000,000. basis of calculation of the profits of The items are £2,600,000 for the war in the individual. I hope, if it was ne- Afghanistan. That is an expenditure cessary to make out any case after the for which, no doubt, Her Majesty's Gospeech of my hon. Friend, that I have vernment are responsible, and they are made out a case which will justify the quite ready to defend their action. The House in giving its assent to this loan. other items are £16,000,000 incurred on The course of treatment which we are behalf of Famines, £28,700,000 incurred adopting very much resembles that for Public Works, which, whether the course of medicine known as homoeo- system is right or wrong, is a system pathy, which, by giving the patient that was in existence when we came infinitesimal doses of the poison from into Office, and £9,700,000 loss by which he is suffering, finally ejects it exchange. I arrive at this last item from the system altogether. Perhaps by taking the average loss on exchange I may be permitted also to say a few to India during the seven preceding words with regard to Indian finance. years, and during the seven years we Undoubtedly the Resolution withdrawn have been in Office, and the sum lost in last night which commenced with these the last seven years exceeds that lost in words, This House views with appre- the first period by £2,700,000. Now, hension the condition of Indian finance," how has that £57,000,000 of excepdid give expression to a feeling of in- tional Expenditure been met? It is quietude which it would be very foolish very frequently said that the India of me to ignore. One may very fairly Office takes a very optimistic view of ask-"What is the cause of that uneasi- Indian finance; but I think I may ness?" It is not caused, as was said say in regard to myself and my hon. last night, by the hon. Member for Friend that no figure or fact ever set Orkney (Mr. Laing), by any falling off in by us before the House has been the Indian Revenues. Figures show disputed. Nor do I think that even | that the Revenue, under seven years in my most sanguine mood I should of extraordinary pressure, remain firm. ever have ventured to predict that India, Eliminating all disturbing influences, the during seven years of such extraordinary taxes, which, seven years ago, brought depreciation, would be able to meet so in a certain sum, bring in now a large a proportion of the charges out larger sum. Neither can it be found of her ordinary Revenue. Now, how in an increase of the ordinary Expendi- has this amount been met? In three ture. I can show that there is very ways. By loans, by the reduction of little increase in the Civil and Military cash balances, and by payments out of Expenditure. Excluding the war in ordinary Revenue. The increase in Afghanistan, there was no considerable loans during this seven years has been increase in the Military Expenditure, £33,400,000. There has been a deand what increase there is was due crease in the cash balances of £8,000,000, almost exclusively to changes at home, but, of that, £4,000,000 to municipalities; in consequence of alterations in the so that that makes a total, with the terms on which men are enlisted. loans, of £37,400,000. Therefore, during If, then, these apprehensions were not these seven years of extraordinary deon account either of a great diminu- pression, the Revenues of India have tion of income or a great increase in found very nearly £20,000,000 to meet Expenditure, what is the cause of the extraordinary charges. From these it? I think the cause is that our Go- figures we may draw one very safe convernment, from the time it came into clusion. If you could altogether eliOffice up to the present time, has been minate from consideration these abnormal subjected to an almost unparalleled charges, no doubt the prospects of Indian pressure. I can illustrate how enor- finance would be most flourishing. If, mous the strain has been by giving one on the other hand, every seven years set of figures. The Expenditure over and these enormous charges are to be imLord George Hamilton