Mr. ABERNETHY. No; I am asking you why. What benefit is it to one hundred and fifty-million-odd people in this country for this Government to maintain jurisdiction over that section of land, let us say, beyond the Anacostia River in Southeast? Why should it retain that?

Mr. SYLVESTER. As an American citizen, considering that whole country, I like to have a large, impressive Capital.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I do, too. But you do not want the Capital to run it, though. You want the residents of the District to run it. I am-asking you a question, which I would like for you to answer first. Why should the Government retain any control over that section of land beyond the Anacostia River, where there is nothing but residential area, residences?

Mr. SYLVESTER. I do not think I am prepared to answer that. We have not considered that.

Mr. ABERNETHY. You know where Chevy Chase is?

Mr. SYLVESTER. Yes.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Why should the Government maintain any jurisdiction whatsoever over that section?

Mr. SYLVESTER. Because it is in the Constitution.

Mr. ABERNETHY. No; it is not in the Constitution. It can be receded by an act of this Congress. That is my understanding.

Mr. SYLVESTER. As an American citizen, I like to have the Nation's Capital larger than the Federal Triangle and a few other buildings. Mr. ABERNETHY. Why?

Mr. SYLVESTER. Because I think the Federal Triangle and a few other buildings would be a very puny Capital indeed.

Mr. ABERNETHY. What does Chevy Chase add to the Capitol? It is 10 miles from it. There is nothing out there except some people, some residences.

Mr. SYLVESTER. Some very nice avenues, tree-lined and all that.

Mr. ABERNETHY. They are also nice just over in Maryland, Silver Spring and Bethesda. If it is good business for the Government to hold jurisdiction over Chevy Chase, why does it not reach out and take in Bethesda and Silver Spring? I am not arguing the point with you. I am just trying to point up something which I think is really important. I cannot see, to save my life, if we are going to practically abrogate what is in the Constitution by giving our responsibility to a proxy, passing it on to a proxy, why should we maintain any jurisdiction at all over the District of Columbia?

Why not let us just get rid of it and let these people here become full-fledged American citizens, which I am sure you agree with; let them elect a governor and a president and a Congressman and two Senators and a mayor and a city council and a county governing board and pay the salaries of all of them, pay for keeping up the streets? We will get rid of this quarrel we have every year about our Federal contribution. How do you feel about that?

Mr. SYLVESTER. Well, sir, when a specific provision is brought up to do that, I will consider the provision as written and probably be prepared to testify on that at that time. Right now I am for this bill. Mr. ABERNETHY. There are two provisions pending like that. I just thought I would mention it.

Mr. HARRIS. Mr. Allen?

Mr. ALLEN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SYLVESTER. I am a statistician.

Mr. ALLEN. Employed by whom?

Mr. SYLVESTER. By the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Mr. ALLEN. What was your former residence?

Mr. SYLVESTER. I am a resident of Maine, and I just came out of the University of Florida in 1950.

Mr. ALLEN. What city in Maine?

Mr. SYLVESTER. Biddeford, Maine.

Mr. ALLEN. Does that have a council that is elected for a 2-year term only and a complete turn-over potentially of the council each year.

Mr. SYLVESTER. I cannot remember too much now. They have a mayor. I think the elections are held every year, and the new mayor takes over every year at the beginning of the year.

Mr. HARRIS. Mr. Sittler?

Mr. SITTLER. I have no questions.

Mr. ABERNETHY. May I ask you one other question. Did you pay income taxes to the District of Columbia last year?

Mr. SYLVESTER. No, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Will you pay it this year?

Mr. SYLVESTER. I probably will, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Do you not know whether you will or not? It is just 14 or more days.

Mr. SYLVESTER. I have not figured that out yet, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Where did you pay your State income taxes last year? Did you pay them to Maine?

Mr. SYLVESTER. I did not pay any State income tax last year. My salary was below the minimum in the District of Columbia.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Was it below the minimum in Maine?

Mr. SYLVESTER. The State of Maine does not to my knowledge have a State income tax; and I do not maintain residence in Maine, at any rate.

Mr. HARRIS. How long have you been working for the Securities and Exchange Commission?

Mr. SYLVESTER. About a year now,
Mr. HARRIS. As a statistician?

Mr. SYLVESTER. As a statistician.

Mr. HARRIS. What grade?

Mr. SYLVESTER. A grade 5.

sir.

Mr. HARRIS. Thank you very much, sir.

Miss Grace Spiro. Miss Spiro, you may come around. You are the executive secretary, Washington chapter, Americans for Democratic Action?

Miss SPIRO. Yes, sir. I wonder if I could have here, too, Mr. James White, who is one of our members? He is a member of the Washington chapter of Americans for Democratic Action.

Mr. HARRIS. And you wish him to do what?

Miss SPIRO. You might want to ask him some questions that he would know more about than I would, perhaps.

Mr. HARRIS. We will be glad to have him answer any questions you do not feel you can answer, Miss Spiro.

STATEMENT OF GRACE M. SPIRO, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, WASHINGTON CHAPTER, AMERICANS FOR DEMOCRATIC ACTION; ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES WHITE

Miss SPIRO. The Washington chapter of Americans for Democratic Action has testified on all previous versions of the home-rule bill and the record will show our views in detail. At this time we wish merely to reiterate our endorsement of home rule in principle and this bill in particular.

The bill is a complicated one and cannot possibly be perfect. We believe, however, that in some respects it represents an improvement over S. 656-notably, in extending the legislative power of the council; in providing a nonvoting delegate to Congress; in permitting absentee voting; in opening meetings of the council and committees to the public. These we support wholeheartedly.

The important thing about this bill is that it will provide suffrage in the District. Once the principle of suffrage has been established, we can worry about the details later and make any improvements which experience shows to be necessary.

We urge this committee to report out the bill so that the Congress of the United States can devote its time to national problems and relieve it of the necessity of acting as town council for the District of Columbia.

Mr. HARRIS. Does that complete your statement?

Miss SPIRO. Yes; it does.

Mr. HARRIS. Did you have any supplemental statement, Mr. White? Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I would like to ask one question. Miss Spiro, how does ADA feel about the right or the privilege of people of the District voting for President and Vice President?

Miss SPIRO. It would like to see it, Mr. Congressman, eventually. Mr. ABERNETHY. How would they feel about voting for Senators and Representatives?

Miss SPIRO. The Washington chapter would like to have as full suffrage as possible. Of course, the District is a very small place. I do not know just

Mr. ABERNETHY. The District has many more people in it than a good many of our States.

Miss SPIRO. I suppose that is true.

Mr. ABERNETHY. It has about six times as many as Alaska-seven times and they are talking about statehood for Alaska. How would you feel about the people of the District having the right to elect a governor and a legislature-complete autonomy for the District—just the same as people in the adjoining States?

Miss SPIRO. We feel that the Federal Government should rightly take precedence in all matters, Mr. Congressman. I think that something would have to be worked out or I think the chapter-I am trying to express the chapter's views

Mr. ABERNETHY. You do not oppose complete autonomy for people who live in the District of Columbia-that is, the right to govern themselves the same as the people in the States, do you?

Miss SPIRO. Oh, no, indeed.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Then you would go along with the idea of their having the right to elect such officials as they feel that they want

to have, whether it be governor or Congressmen or mayor or what

not.

Miss SPIRO. Whatever would be constitutional.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Is that your answer or is that Mr. White's answer? Miss SPIRO. Mr. White is an expert on home rule.

Mr. ABERNETHY. This is not home rule.

Miss SPIRO. On all of these matters, I wonder if he could just answer this instead of me?

Mr. WHITE. I would say, sir, that we are fully aware of the constitutional position of the District

Mr. ABERNETHY. What is the constitutional position of the District? Mr. WHITE. The constitutional position of the District is limited to, we understand, control of municipal matters; and unless there is amendment to the Constitution, we could not support any further extension of such authority.

Mr. ABERNETHY. You say the Constitution provides that the Congress shall have control over this body as a municipal body? Is that what you are saying?

Mr. WHITE. The Congress has control, exclusive control, of the District; and that it has on certain occasions delegated municipal control, such as is contemplated in this bill.

Mr. ABERNETHY. As a representative of ADA, you are now saying that the Congress has exclusive control over the District. You recognize that?

Mr. WHITE. We recognize that; yes, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. That is encouraging.

Mr. WHITE. But we also recognize that at different times Congress has seen fit to delegate a certain portion of municipal authority to the District.

Mr. ABERNETHY. That section in the Constitution which gives the Congress the power to exercise exclusive jurisdiction over the District of Columbia also gives the Congress power to do other things; that is, to levy taxes. That is in a part of that section; it is a subsection. It gives it power to maintain an army, and it gives the Congress power to exercise exclusive jurisdiction over the District.

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. If the Congress can delegate one of those are you an attorney!

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I think the opinion of a layman frequently is better. They do not get as much money for it, but it may be better. As a layman, if Congress can delegate its power to do one thing such as exercising jurisdiction over the District, why can it not delegate its power to do all things in that particular section of the Constitution? Mr. WHITE. It could do so, I believe, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. In other words, you feel that we could delegate our power to levy taxes and do all these other things, and we could just go back home and draw our checks down there.

Mr. WHITE. I think precedence has shown-I think there was a case that has figured very much in the District affairs called Roach versus Van Riswyck, in which there was a decision by Justice Cox in which he made a distinction between the power of municipalities and the general power of legislation.

I think it has been pretty well established now that giving an area as small as the District such general powers is contrary to the Federal interests.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I do not want to prolong this any further, except. to just say this: You do feel, though, that the people here are entitled to the same right to govern themselves as the people over in Maryland, Virginia, New York, and other sections of the country? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. So then you do not feel that anybody should have any control whatsoever over this, that they should have the same right as the people in Maryland and New York and so on have? Mr.WHITE. Yes, sir; as is compatible with the Federal interests. in the District of Columbia.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Of course I get a different answer when I ask you that question. How do you feel about receding approximately 90 percent of the District back to Maryland and just letting the Government keep the Capitol and monuments and main buildings around here?

Mr. WHITE. I would be against it.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Why?

Mr. WHITE. Well, partly, sir, out of a feeling of identification with the District. I may say that I also reside in Maryland and have a voting privilege in Maryland and intend to preserve it; but I see noreason for retrocession

Mr. ABERNETHY. As a citizen of Maryland you would not object to having this great city a part of your great State, would you? Mr. WHITE. I think there are a great many questions involved in the matter.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Would you object?

Mr. WHITE. I personally would not object from the point of view of a citizen of Maryland; but I believe the District people have a right to consider the question of taxation, whether their taxes that they would have to pay as citizens of Maryland, whether a large portion of them would be voted to their city.

Mr. ABERNETHY. You do not think they would get as much for their taxes over in Maryland, if they become a part of Maryland, as they do in the District?"

Mr. WHITE. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Then they had better stay here.

Mr. WHITE. I think it is probably true.

Mr. HARRIS. Who is the head of your organization?
Miss SPIRO. Of the Washington chapter?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Miss SPIRO. Mr. Francis Biddle.

Mr. HARRIS. Is he called the chairman?

Miss SPIRO. He is the national chairman.

Mr. HARRIS. And your offices are where; national offices?

Miss SPIRO. At 1341 Connecticut.

Mr. HARRIS. Your national offices are here in Washington?

Miss SPIRO. Yes; and also the Washington chapter.

Mr. HARRIS. Who is the head of your District chapter?

Miss SPIRO. Mr. Wolinski, Mr. Louis Wolinski.

Mr. HARRIS. Is his office at the same place?